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7/1/09
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State rules in favor of young transgender AUGUSTA, Maine — The Maine Human Rights Commission ruled Monday that the Orono School Department discriminated against a transgender child by denying her access to the girls bathroom.
While the school department’s lawyer warned that schools around the state may not be ready to manage the practical fallout from the decision, civil liberties advocates hailed the ruling as an advancement of human rights.
“This ruling is a huge step forward for a vulnerable population that is entitled to the full protection of the law,” said Zachary Heiden, legal director of the Maine Civil Liberties Union. “There will always be voices who claim we’re not ready, we’re not there yet, the time to end discrimination is next year, or next session. But victims of discrimination should not have to wait.”
The attorney for the child and her parents said his clients are very happy with the outcome of their complaint.
“At the very heart of it is the issue of basic human dignity and fundamental civil liberties,” said Eric Mehnert. “It was a good decision.”
But Melissa Hewey, attorney for the Orono School Department, said the ruling was “a huge leap.”
“I’m not sure that it takes into account practicalities that face educators around the state,” she said. “You can understand [the ruling] intellectually. You can agree with it intellectually. But practice is sometimes different — and I think that’s what may have escaped some people in this case.”
The discrimination in question first occurred in October 2007 when the child was in the fifth grade at Asa Adams School. Until then, she was allowed to use the girls’ bathroom, although she was biologically male. But that fall, the transgender child was followed into the girls room by a male student who had “previously started to harass her by stalking her and calling her ‘faggot,’” according to the Maine Human Rights Commission investigator’s report.
After the second such episode, the boy was suspended and removed from the transgender child’s class. At that point, school officials told the transgender child that she had to use a single-stall faculty bathroom at the other end of the school, and that was when her parents decided to take the matter to the Maine Human Rights Commission.
Paul Melanson, grandfather of the boy accused of harassing the transgender student, also filed a complaint with the Maine Human Rights Commission, saying that not allowing his grandson to use the girls bathroom or the faculty bathroom as the other child did was a violation of his grandson’s right to public accommodation under the Maine Human Rights Act. Melanson had given his grandson permission to use the girls bathroom as long as the transgender student was doing so, according to the report.
Enough is enough, an irate Melanson said Monday of the commission’s ruling.
“It ticks me right off that you’re letting a kid run the whole system,” he said.
Melanson is now trying to inspire Maine moms to protest the decision, which he thinks is wrong — and unfair to both boys and girls.
“Little boys do not belong in the little girls room, and vice versa,” he said. “This isn’t just about my kid. A lot of children have come up to me and said that this isn’t right.”
On Monday, the commission found that Asa Adams School did not unlawfully discriminate against Melanson’s grandson “because of his sexual orientation,” which is a heterosexual male.
“Minor Student 2 was disciplined because his biological sex is male and his gender identity is male and he used the girls’ bathroom,” the investigator’s report said.
Hewey said the commission made the right decision in this case.
“You can hope that most people won’t use their children as pawns to make political statements,” she said.
Patricia Ryan, executive director of the Maine Human Rights Commission, said this decision is among the first to involve schools, sexual orientation provision, gender identity and the issues of bathroom use. She said schools in Maine likely will want to take a look at it.
It was the commission’s second ruling in two months on transgender people and public restroom use. On May 18, the commission found that a transgender woman was discriminated against at a Denny’s restaurant in Auburn when management would not let her use the ladies room until she had sex reassignment surgery.
“Every time you get new jurisdiction, the first decisions that are made are always new,” Ryan said. “They’re always in areas in which the courts have not had the opportunities to develop case law.”
According to Mehnert, his clients wanted to bring the case in part because the parents’ previously “wonderful” relationship with school officials over their child’s public accommodation had broken down.
“The message that was sent from the superintendent said that it is OK to segregate this child, it is OK to ostracize this child,” Mehnert said. “I think [the parents’] biggest challenge is their fear — it’s a very real fear — that the Orono school system has told them that they don’t think they can protect the child.”
Because the child started identifying as a girl at a very young age, the parents had worked with school officials to have a plan for “reasonable accommodation,” Mehnert said. But when the fifth-grade incidents happened, the school moved to resolve the situation with “no interactive conversation,” he said.
Hewey said school officials had the child’s interests in mind.
“Not only did they provide accommodation, a separate bathroom, that was the bathroom that the student’s health care practitioner recommended,” she said.
Mehnert said his clients had hoped to look at the fifth-grade incidents as an opportunity for education rather than a problem.
“They felt that the school could be a leader in what everyone sees as a very complex issue, and they were rebuffed,” he said.
The Maine Human Rights Commission is the state agency charged with the responsibility of enforcing Maine’s anti-discrimination laws. It attempts to resolve complaints of discrimination to the mutual satisfaction of those who are involved, according to its Web site.
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I have a son a of dear friends in this group. God BLess and keep them safe.
What a crock. So the girls are to share the bathroom with a boy that isn't even old enough to know what transgender even means. This State is a total disgrace. When will the majority ever have to stop bowing to the lunatic fringe minority? Glad my kids are grown.
Stop discrimination! It hurts.
TracyMcHatten how do you know this child is not old enough to understand what transgender means?
It seems pretty clear from the article that this child knew from a very early age that it was transgender and being it is a subject you have no clue about you are just assuming that a child is to young to understand the meaning when a child is not. A child can learn a great deal at an early age and they can understand very complex issues such as being transgender. You seem to be very closed minded in your thinking TracyMcHatten.
Paul Melanson, You are an idiot old timer stuck in your ways. I'm willing to bet he is homophobic and sadly he most likely is teaching his Grandson to become homophobic as well. As for his stupid comment that a kid is running the show. A kid is not. Adults made this decision and he is not happy with their decision. Paul Melanson should take a very long hard look in the mirror but sadly he never will.
I don't think this grandfather is really teaching his grandson the right lessons.....in sort of using him as a pawn , whether that was his intention or not. I do not believe he has taught his grandson anything good at all. Perhaps he could have made his point of view about this in another way if he felt so strongly about it....but not dragged his young grandson further into it.
well there ya go its official ,what ever was left of gov sanity just went out the window,id pull my kid out of that school so fast,thank god mine are grown up.peace
Adults teach children so many things....and hate or intolerance should not be something they model or teach.
And, also....and this pertains to another comment on another BDN article. People should be able express their opinions on the BDN comments pages without being called names. If one has to stoop to that.....then who has the issue?
Has this kid gone through Surgery yet? Is he going to have it done? Go all the way if that's how he feels.
Transgender? One is either a male or a female. I'm glad I'm not a child having to grow up in this sick enviroment.
It is real simple kids if you have a penis you are a man. If not you are a girl. You cant be both. So go to the appropriate bathroom.
WHAT PART OF "HE" DON"T YOU LIBERAL PEOPLE UNDERSTAND? HE was born male. "HIS" grandfather sued. Stop discrimination it hurts? THAT'S PART OF LIFE. (Before my comments get repeated thumbs down, may I remind you that there is not a surer way for them to be read.)
As Jackie Mason says " you can't be a table and a chair,you're one or the other."
The parents of the transgender child filed a discrimination complaint.....then a complaint was filed by the grandfather of the boy who harassed the transgender child. TracyMcHatten: Do you have your facts correct.....it does not sound like it.
Again, TracyMcHatten. Explain to me how you know in such detail how a child cannot know they are transgender. Explain to me in detail how you are an expert in transgender people. Explain to me that just because someone is born male or female they don't feel they fit in the body that where born into.
I'm far from a LIBERAL as you stated. I own firearms, I wish all states had the death penalty but I'm also for a woman’s right for abortion and I'd love to see that homosexuals and lesbians can marry. I'm not a liberal nor am I a conservative. I am an independent and I enjoy being one.
You TracyMcHatten should sit down in real life with a transgender person and talk to them to see how they feel. To find out what they go through, how hard things are for them and how confused they are but you never will. You are stuck in your ways and you won't change because you have no desire to which is sad.
Open your mind, do some research and maybe you will one day realize that transgender people are no different than you or I. They where just born the wrong sex.
This state is going straight down the toilet. Boys in the boys room and girls in the girls room.....period.
Way to punish an entire population who are not comfortable with having MALES in the FEMALE's restroom. 1 person's "comfort" trumps everyone else. What has this state come to?
Kevinof Bangor, when I grew up just twenty or so years ago, this story would have not even been printed. I ashamed to live in this State, ashamed of the morals of the people nowdays, and ashamed of YOU! THER IS NO WAY IN HELL THIS KID IS BEHIND THIS LAWSUIT! I am NOT an expert an expert in transgender people THANK GOD! PERVERTED BEHAVIOR IS PERVERTED BEHAVIOR! Sounds to me like a non- Christian conservative like me struck anerve with you. CONFUSED is the KEY word about confused transgendered people. BORN WITH A PENIS = MALE. What part of that don't you, an enlightened progressive tolerant person, do not understand??????
I would pull my kids out of school. That is ridiculous. I knew it would come to this. Everyone should pull their kids out. Parents have so little control of what the kids have to deal with when they are in school but this takes the cake. It won't take long for some teenage guy with a little imagination to say well today I feel like a girl. I'm going into the girls locker room and there is really legally nothing anyone can do to stop him. Sounds like chaos to me. And a free meal ticket for some.
So move out of the State of Maine then TracyMcHatten. I would welcome that your ignorant presence is no longer around.
Can you show facts that the child had no influence in the lawsuit? Seems his parents where very supportive of it and I'm sure they discussed it with him before moving it forward. The child could have simply no but I doubt that was the case. I could be wrong but I doubt I am.
I'm also wondering how you are a non christian but you stated thank god. That reads very christian to someone such as me. You are just a very ignorant person with a much closed mind. You refuse to look at facts and accept a truth that is different than your own beliefs.
Maine has enough ignorant people and you are more than welcomed to move away.
Just another story that proves just how screwed up we're getting in this country. Just another nail in the American coffin. And just one more reason we have "Don't ask, don't tell" in the military. Congress wouldn't allot the military enough money to build all of the different bathroom and sleeping facilities to make every confused person happy.
If God made you a man, be a man. If God made you a woman, be a woman. God didn't make you gay, transgender, bi or any other orientation. Don't mess with what God made. He won't be very happy with you.
EJParsons you don't realize that some of us are atheist and don't believe in any sort of god. Everyone is born an atheist. You are taught religion; you are not born with it. You are not born with a god, you are taught there is a god so you can take your god talk and shove it.
You where taught there was an Easter bunny, a Santa as well as a tooth fairy and you believed it until you became older and realized none of them where real but sadly you still believe in an invisible sky wizard because you where taught and the key word is taught there is one.
No god made me. My mother and father made me. I popped out of my mom’s vagina and I was born. Sadly I was forced to go to church. I had no choice. Sadly I was told there was a god and devil, again I had no choice. It was forced upon me. I was never given the choice as a child to say no or make up my own mind.
This child who is male understands something that neither I nor you cannot even start to phantom. It found it is a female trapped in a male’s body. It has a penis but does not desire it. It wishes to be a woman and it should have that right to become one. The amount of ignorance that some of you show is amazing because your bible teaches you that he was born male he must remain male.
Just remember this. One single man named Constantine decided your path. I decided my own.
Born an atheist and will die an atheist.
TracyMcHatten,Alces247, CM1113 and plenty of others, you might want to rethink your comments. Having a penis does not make you male and having a vagina does not make you female. Aside from the poor transgendered souls born into the wrong body (which may yet be shown to be genetic in origin), it is also medically possible to be born one sex yet be another genetically. One can have all the female equipment including a vagina (but no uterus or ovaries), yet be genetically male with XY chromosomes. It is called complete androgen insensitivity. The child is genetically programmed to be male, yet certain receptors in the body don't respond to the male hormones. There are other similar disorders that fall all along a spectrum. There are also true transexuals that are born with both sets of gear.
Those are scientific FACTS, not just your knee-jerk reactions. Read up on them, perhaps a bit of knowledge will make you a touch more understanding of others, though I doubt it.
And, much like Kevin, don't even go down the "liberal road". I'm a crotch scratching, gun totin, Chevy truck driving redneck. I just happen to have a brain and try to use it.
Sometimes things go "awry" in biology.....or let's say differently. We are not all carbon copies of anything. People are not all born the same. Some babies are born perfectly physically healthy....some are not. There are differences.....but the things that make us human, and caring human beings....those things are not changed by biology or whether we are heteosexual , homosexual,etc.
To clarify: I was not implying that someone transgender is not physically healthy.....my point was, that there are differences (caused by physiology, hormones,etc.) It is undeniable that there are some differences in people's physiology from the start.....and was just using as an example that one baby might be born without any real health problems, and another might not have that same start. There are variances in so many areas. (apparently some children are born with autism or at least the propensity for it.) Not comparing autism to someone being transgender....of course not. Just saying people are born differently.....not everyone is the same. There are differences in biology. justmehere is right........there are scientific facts, whether wants to ignore them or not.
WHEN HE LOSES HIS PACKAGE AND GAINS A SLIT THEN GO IN THERE.
UNTIL THEN LEAVE THE LITTLE GIRLS ALONE.
Chersully2000, Kevin_of Bangor, justmehere well said. For the others, try be supportive of this child who will have so many people against her.
Transgender? What the hell is that
Please explain to me what the school did wrong. They provided a unisex bathroom, the only mistake was it was labeled "faculty". What about the little girls rights to privacy and the assumption that people of the same physical attributes will be sharing their bathroom. What is the sexual preference of a transgender, anyway?
Each person deserves to be respected for who they are, in this case the transgender child was understood by her parents and teachers and was given the right to use the girls bathroom until the hate and bullying started. You must for a moment take your blinders off to understand the special needs that people have. Be slow to criticize and take the time to educate yourself.
First came gay marriage...
That's a good thing...
What a sick world we live in. This kid needs help and he's not getting it from his parents.
I for one don't want my daughter going into the same bathroom at school with a male. A girls bathroom is no place for a child who was
born a male, no matter what the he thinks he is. What has happened to the morals of this country? I think the school was correct when
they offered a bathroom that was not the girls bathroom for a male. If the boy ........... wants to have a sex change that's fine but the girls
bathroom is no place for him. I don't need to educate myself on any thing and don't consider what I'm say to be discrimination, it's common
sense not to let a male use the girls bathroom.
re 10:52 pm: Of course you can be both a table and chair. You sit on the floor and put your coffee mug on the seat of the chair and poof! It's a table.
Are you people afraid of transgendered people? Do you think they never existed before now? You are the ones who have been "accommodated" all this time, only being satisfied if things that make you uncomfortable stay hidden, making innocent people suffer, especially in this instance, a child!
The grandfather is a monster, using his grandson and teaching him hatred like that. Just despicable and outrageous. What about the other little boy following the transgender girl into the bathroom calling her despicable names? Maybe if boys weren't taught hatred by their parents, and could learn to pee INTO the toilet, not just around it and all over it, this wouldn't even be an issue.
The parents were correct in their fear that the school couldn't protect the child. The school has already failed at this. It is shameful.
This just makes me angry. No, I am not afraid of gays or "transgendered" etc. I am just so sick of being accused of discrimination. If this 'person' has a male organ, its a male- and vice versa!
And another thing. Did this man Melanson wait almost his entire life until he decided to take a stand, and stand up for what's right, in this case the persecution of a child? There is something very wrong here. This man must be mentally ill.
I'm glad I don't still have kids in school or a kid in school myself...He has a penis use the boys bathroom..this is why home school is so popular.
oh God Where art though... hey that was a movie.... the sad part of being an atheist ... oh and by the way i'm klingonis they wont know they are wrong until they die and face GOD. (hence too late)..... oh and by the way i'm klingon.... no laws pertain to me at all and i want spacecraft parking at the mall.
oh God where art though... hey that was a movie..... the sad part about an atheist is they wont know they are wrong until they die and come before God for judgement... and i'm a klingon and i want spaceship parking at the mall.
"Adults teach children so many things"
Yeah they are called values and just because my values do not match your values that does not make your value system the right one. I'm pretty sure there are things you do not like and will not tolerate but no one is accusing you of hate or intolerance for having that value system.
A parent should have the right to teach their children their beliefs not yours.
"So move out of the State of Maine then TracyMcHatten. I would welcome that your ignorant presence is no longer around. "
Actually Kevin your opinion appears to be the minority in this thread at least. I'll look forward to seeing your future posts with the handle Kevin of Mass or some other progressive state.
Worst thing that ever happened to Maine was when we started encouraging you people to come here.
omg jackie mason says no theres one philospher i wouldnt want to follow
...romulans...
Taken from Exodus website.
Thought crimes laws threaten my right to share my personal story.
"Hate crimes" laws passed in other countries have paved the way for prosecuting "hate speech." As we have already seen demonstrated, speaking one’s personal conviction in a secular or religious context can be considered a criminal act under these laws. American cannot afford to support legislation that would violate our basic rights to religious freedom and expression.
•In British Columbia, a Catholic city councilor has been ordered to pay a homosexual couple $1,000 for publicly saying that their lifestyle is "not normal and not natural." John DeCicco, was simply restating the church’s teaching on homosexuality, but instead the state considered his personal beliefs "hate speech" under Canada's hate crimes law.
Canadian City Councillor Fined $1000 for Saying Homosexuality "Not Normal or Natural," January 19, 2007, LifeSite News
•In Australia, two Evangelical pastors were charged with violating the state of Victoria’s "hate crimes" law for criticizing Islam at a Christian conference. The judge ruled that the pastors had incited "hatred and fear" against Muslims.
"Aussie Pastors Face Jail Sentences for Expressing Beliefs," August 14, 2006, The Becket Fund for Religious Liberty
•In Sweden, Pastor Ake Greens read from the Bible at a Borgholm, Sweden church, and gave the Bible’s view on homosexual practices. He was charged with violating Sweden’s strict laws against hate speech, specifically a crime of "expressing contempt ... on account of ... one’s sexual orientation." He was indicted, convicted and sentenced to 30 days in jail.
"Swede’s Sermon on Gays: Bigotry or Free Speech?" The Washington Post, January 29, 2005
All crime is a "hate crime."
Sexual preference and gender play a role in other crimes such as rape, child abuse and domestic violence. According to the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs, the number of "gay-on-gay" domestic violence cases is 14 times greater than the number of violent "anti-gay" attacks ("Facts Contradict ‘Gay’ Party Line on Hate Crimes," Steven A. Schwalm, InFocus, Family Research Council, IF98K1).
To uphold civil order and impartiality under the law, the government must be responsible for judging illegal actions - not one’s sexuality, feelings or perceived bias. This is the only way to ensure that each and every American is afforded equal justice.
why have separate bathrooms in the first place? lets get back to the good old day's of one unisex bathroom system. although this system would be updated to consist of private stalls. you're in there to do your human business, not to be a 'boy' or to be a 'girl'.
By reading the negative comments no wonder there are 2 Maines. The one that has the people who are idiots and the one that have people with decency, understanding and a basic understanding of what's right and wrong. I'd put my money on the Southern Maine for sure. God help your kids and grandkids of those idiots.
All of you haters on this forumn need to start growing up! When you teach your children to HATE yo buyyour ticket to HELL!
So all a male student has to say is that he is really a she and can go into the girls restroom to use it. Come on that is flat not right. What about the real girls feelings on this. What now do we have to make girls restrooms, boys restrooms and other restrooms.
Go pee in the urinal. Its not hate , this is plain stupid
gracie wrote: He has a penis use the boys bathroom..this is why home school is so popular.
YOU ARE TOTALLY RIGHT !!!
So much hate and discrimination here. Just think of all those poor girls being discriminated against, violated in the most personal of ways and condoned by the very people entrusted to keep them safe. Their rights for privacy, and decency ripped away from them, and treated like second class citicens. Their abaillity to voice their concern eliminated, because to do so would be bigoted and hateful. "Girls, just remember, whenever you feel unsafe while going to the potty because there is a guy in there with you, you are celebrating diversity"! I'll say UP, you say DOWN, I'll say WRONG, you say RIGHT! Insanity.
This is such a waste of time and money but I will bet you any amount of money that more than 50% of this class, whether transgendered, gay, straight, confused, curious or whatever foolish term applies, CANNOT READ at grade level.
kandgven - i am a proud Northern Maine and certainly NOT a hater (there is a minority group here). I applaud this decision. But there is a lot of Bible toting, moral shouting ignorance up here. Orono's own attorney even conceded that it was the right thing intellectually. Putting your head in the sand folks and pretending transgender individuals don't exist makes you more of the ignorant fool than they could ever aspire to be. Discrimination is not a family value.
People are really gross on here.
Bleh, I'm really glad I don't have a dirty, pervert mind like half of you.
"Lose his package" .. "He has a penis"
So what? SHE identifies as female.
This young girl has a difficult life ahead of her. Her parents are doing what they can to help her grow up with a positive sense of self. This is an issue about a child! A child! All of the hateful comments made by those who are uneducated are aimed at hurting that child. Shame on you!
Maine is now run by the homosexual lobby. A 5th grader thinking he's a transgender?? How sick are the parents?
Are the parents gay? Whats the big secret with what and who they are?
Most males urinating habits, are disgusting. I have to laugh ,guys who claim to be transgender go to the bathroom like a guy not the female they claim to be and there's the answer to what they really are.
What do you know in the 5th grade?
Just because I think this 'person' should be using the mens room ( has a penis) or home schooled ( more logical) does not make me a hater- or an idiot! This is nuts. What about my rights for privacy. This will start a barrage of bogus complaints to the Human Rights Commission. I have lived here all my life and am beginning to be embarrassed to say so. I , for one, say I- and my husband ,children and neighbors are being discriminated against! I wish all you liberal minds "idiots" would move back from where you came from.
I have always felt that we should move to unisex, private bathrooms. I have stood in many a long line for the ladies room when the men's room was free. Isn't that discrimination? Women need more time apparently to go so they end up waiting to do so. An element of fairness is clearly lacking. If we move to unisex, private bathrooms it would be hard for a pedophile to pass unnoticed into a bathroom behind a child or for them to lurk unnoticed. I think it is time for a change.
Pardon me, but what about "The rights" of the little girl who feels uncomfortable using the same bathroom as an intact male?
Folks, decisions such as this will do nothing other than gain support for the right. I once considered myself a "liberal" but can't live in that camp anymore. I still oppose the death penalty, believe in a woman's right to keep her medical choices between her and her doctor, and I don't think locking delinquent children in cages improves the quality of civilization. I believe women and men should get equal pay for equal work, and I would cheer a woman quarterback with great passing skill, on my beloved New York Giants, BUT intact males are "him," and belong in the boy's room, and ditto for females.
There is one other choice with which I would be comfortable. That is have the entities embroiled in this silly silly discussion build a third bathrom for folks who choose to use it!
I am shocked and dismayed by so many that hate little girls here. What kind of dark ages are you waking up from. Next you'll be proposing since they can't answer a beauty pagent question "correctly" they should be punnished! Women, are too stoopid to vote, to work, to figure out where to go to the bathroom. Why don't all the little girls go to the potty in the single stall down the hall, so the little BOY/girl/transgender have the GIRLS room to himself. As athiests, your scientific intellects ought to recognize that Darwin's theory of evolution is survival of the fittest, not promotion of the abnormal. O that's right what's normal. What's Mariage, what's gender, what's gravity, in fact I think why have descriptive words at all. I feel offended.
howbri, that doesn't make sense. Being homosexual and transgender are two different things. Yeah, they fight for human rights as a community. However, they aren't the same. Also, the parents aren't sick. They are giving their child unconditional love by accepting her and supporting her. Some people would be wise to take a lesson from them.
zoiebean and ChristopherMaine, I agree. Unisex bathrooms will solve the problem until the older generations die away. Then everyone can go on living life like they want to live it without fear.
The only "devil" in this story is the grandfather using his grandson to forward his own screwed up agenda. Sick! No wonder the boy has no respect. He should be removed from the grandfather's influence. Maybe he'd have a chance to grow up and realize how he'd been used.
i don't know how this little girl / boy using the girls' bathroom is denying any little girl her privacy. Aren't the girls rooms supplied with individual stalls? What's the big deal? Are you men out there upset with this because you think of yourself at that age and know that you would be trying to look at a little girl's equipment? Yup, i think that's what a lot of you so -called men would be doing. I think having womens / mens room is basically bogus. The reason we have to is because there are weirdo men out there who would go in a woman's room and harrass them and get all sexual over it instead of doing their business and leaving. Americans are way hung up on genitals, lol. What a bunch of idiot puritans. Time to grow up, guys: control your lust. You who are against this are the perverts, lol
howbri , leftme thats also true.
There is nothing good going to come out of this decision.
What is this world coming to?!
"Hetero-Phobes", "Hate Mongers", "Sexist Bigots", "Girl Haters"... "Soothsayer", that's a great plan, anyone who doesn't share your opinion should have their children removed from the home and placed in a home with 2 daddys, or 2 mommies, or 2 "humans of non descript sexual identity or orientation" or 2 Klingons, or how about a dog, a cat, and a large potted fern! I love that "letter reader" turns the tables, and calls anyone who objects to perversion a pervert. Classic liberal play book.
Sometimes working extra hours to pay for my kids private schooling wears me out. Then days like today come along and I remember that it is worth every penny. First off leave the name calling kid out of the debate. He is a smoke screen to mask the real issue. Of coarse it is wrong for him to call names or bully other kids, but make no mistake that happens at every school, every day, by kids from every side. Its called a sad reality. Forget the transexual debate... right or wrong, sin or not, science or confused. Look at it just from the issue of rights. How do the rights of a few trump the rights of many? Do the other students not also have rights? Carry this decision forward to the obvious outcomes. What about lockerrooms when as they get older? Will he also be allowed to use the girls locker room? And if not why? What is the difference?
No matter how you look at it or what you consider the reason (fate, science, or something going awry) this person is different and that is a FACT that can't be denied. One above that has posted the most in support of this young person used the word "it" over and over instead of he or she. That was a person in support of this decision. There is a difference... period. So where is the harm in using a private bathroom?
It's not unusual for little boys or girls to wish they were born the opposite gender. They think the others have advantages to things they don't. Ten year olds don't know what they want to be. If it wasn't for all the homosexuality TV shows , movies , books, articles and sex education crap saying being homosexual is normal these children wouldn't even think about it much. IF a male who has male genitalia is allowed to use the girls room, then all the boys should be able to use the girls room. IT'S WRONG ! Boys use the boys room --girls use the girls room . When are we going to stop letting these organizations like the Maine civil liberties group corrupt our children more than they already have.
This upcoming generation of children aren't going to know what's normal or what's right or wrong. How about all you Mothers Homeschooling your kids ?
ok republicans, calm down....everything is going to be ok.
equal rights = letting minorities run the show and discriminate against the norm!
How about we don't call them 'transgender' but we call them what they really are...FREAKS!
It is so easy to teach hate. So the boy in this case didn't like the girl (boy?) going in the girls bathroom and dressing like a girl. Seems as though his grandad pretty much gave him permission to harrass her(him?). Sad, because you can't really blame the little boy for what he has learned at home.
As a white heterosexual male, I would like to be a lesbian Hispanic Black Transgendered Labradoodle. Can anyone out there tell me why I can't. Also I would like to use the "employees only" restrooms because I would also like to be an "employee". Just try to tell me I can't and I'll contact my lawyer and the Maine Civil Rights! I would like to be the Governer, and I think it it discriminatory of the rest of Maine to tell me I can't based soley on the fact that I have never run for the office! I'm qualified because I feel like the Governer. I was born this way. Who are you idiots to tell me otherwise!
ckwayupnorth:
"equal rights = letting minorities run the show and discriminate against the norm! "
Can you please inform us what the "norm" is? It always changes so its hard to follow.
we used to burn people for having freckles
we had slavery
we killed people because they believed in science
we didnt let women vote
we had internment camps
that was the "norm" back then.
Pretty soon transgender will be accpeted and we will find something else to have a hissy fit about.
Why don't we eliminate all bathrooms and the kiddos can all gather around a big hole behind the school and do their business there. No peeking you perverts! Problem solved.
Welcome to Barnum and Bailey!! Please direct youe attention to the center ring!!
WOW.... what is this world coming to!!! First of all, if a child in 5th grade (or younger) starts showing signs of wanting to be the opposite sex.. they should have a little guidance to point them in the RIGHT direction. What the heck.. do people not want to be responsible for their kids anymore!! When I was growing up, this gay, transgender bullcrap was unheard of.. THE WAY IT SHOULD...get back in the closets where you belong!!
Oh and btw.. I have a 15yr old daughter who doesnt go along with this crap either..... at least I know I've done something right!!
EJParsons and alces247, you are both wrong.
Justmehere thank you for your post. We had two lectures and an ethics seminar on intersex this year, including two women with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome visit our class. Partial androgen insensitivity also exists where a variant androgen receptor can bind some testosterone, but not enough to fully form male genitalia and the person is born with ambiguous external sex organs. There are other genetic conditions as well such as a defective 5-alpha-reductase enzyme which converts testosterone to its more potent form DHT.
So alces247, some people are born both male and female. And EJParsons, if God creates people of intersex, who is to say He doesn't also create transgendered people or gay people??
Finally, its kind of ironic, when the argument is gays in the military, people say they should be excluded because straight soldiers shouldn't have to share bathroom facilities with gay people. But if a transgendered person doesn't want to use the same bathroom. they're ostracized for it.
ilovedave. . . . Remember the stories of Jews hiding in closet and attics to save their lives in Hitler's Germany? That is what the closet really represents. Sad that you think America would be well served by returning to that type of shameful indecency.
Last I knew people, girls dont use urinals or go to the bathroom out in the sink area. So exactly what harm could a transgendered male do to another female who is also in a closed stall??? These statements about "I wouldnt want my child daughter using a bathroom with another male..." just don't make sense. No parts are being shown.
wow this is rediculous and what is this state coming too. Seriously people... a penis doesn't make you male and a vagina doesn't make you female? So when a baby is born and the doctors says its a boy or its a girl! Is that going to change to the doctors saying um... well I'll let you decide what IT is. This is crazy and if I had children I would pull them out of that school system asap.
Micheal Jackson thought he was still a child. Could he go to the bathroom with little girls? What's the big deal they are all in their own stalls? So when a pedophile wants to be a child and wants to be asexual, we should all just shut up and relax. There is a cultural storm brewing, and the kick back is going to be more than any of us expect. T'will be sad when you get what you want only to find out it wasn't what you wanted!
TurkeyTalker, thanks for your condemnation. My post had nothing to do with the orientation issue. It had to do with the grandfather's complete dismissal of his own grandchild's feelings, growth, perceptions, future, etc. Did you see the poor kid on the news? He's so confused and hurt. Clearly he knows his grandfather is using him, but has no recourse. Don't group me with others you feel obligated to dismiss. You have no idea what my opinion is on the transgender issue. My only concern in posting is the fate of this poor child (the grandson). He's the one who thought it was totally appropriate when he “previously started to harass her by stalking her and calling her ‘[rude slur BDN won't accept my post with although it's a quote of their own article- sheesh!]’” Someone taught him this behavior is acceptable. Guess who?
I got tired of reading all these comments so forgive me if I am repeating someone else but to Kevin of Bangor,;
Is it possible this child has been taught by his parents to be transgender? I personnally know a lady who use to dress her boys up as girls because she wanted to know what it was like to have a girl. Sick as it was, she did it. If we are born atheist are we not also born a male or a femaile?
Why do we have "tom boys" for example? We have them because little girls hang out with little boys and did whatever they were doing. Living in a house with three brothers and a male cousin I can tell you from experience I was a tom boy. Doesn't mean I was a boy now does it? I wore hand me downs from my brothers, played trucks, climibed trees, played baseball, liked westerns, learned to put an engine in a carand much more from those boys. Yet I always knew I was a girl and when I started to go through puberty there was no doubt I was a girl! This child hasn't even done that yet so why is it not possible for the child to learn being a transgender from his parents?
We need a license for everything these days except one to be a good parent so there are a TON of really bad parents out there. It wouldn't surprise me if that is the issue here. I'm just saying because I do have an open mind, do you?
avidreader, but wouldn't this ruling also apply to things such as locker rooms. These kids will be in high school soon, which locker room should this young person use? Is it discriminating to have him use a privete dressing room? I don't take issue with the transgender kid. That is an entire different issue. No matter what reason you give for this young persons situation , he is different. Even if he is a trapped girl, then she is still trapped in a male body. Just based on pure biology it is a different situation, not a boy but not in body form a girl. So what is so wrong about a private bathroom. If the parents just want to raise her as best they can then why make an issue out of her. Let her deal with her situation in private.
What a crock is right, TracyMcHatten.
If you have a penis you use the boy's/men's bathroom. If you have a vagina, you use the girl's/women's bathroom. One's chosen "gender identity" means absolutely nothing!
This political correctness crap is completely out of control, and the loons on this so call Human Rights Commission, need to pull their heads out of that very dark place they have inserted them, and breathe.
I have not heard of such total stupidity in quite some time.
To TracyMcHatten Where are you? There is sex in elementary schools all over the country. I volunteer with a school district and you can hear third graders talking about giving and receiving oral sex. People need to wake up and realize that children are becoming sexually active very young
Where is DHS when they are needed.Take this child away from HIS parents.
UNBELIEVABLE .... It is not discrimination or violation of civil rights, unless you are considering those of my children, but a boy uses the boy's room and a girl uses the girls room. If this child is not sure of which that they are, then a private or other means of appropriate facilites shall be provided. By the way, just because you set your coffee on the chair does not make it a table. It is a chair that is being used for alternative purposes.
The bottom line here is the parents should have accepted their child being given a seperate bathroom to use and the gradfather should never have allowed his grandson to go into the girls room and harrass this "transgendered" child. It is discrimmination for all the girls at this point.
Common sense .... Completely agree on all parts .... There is a saying that "You can't teach common sense" and I disagree .... You can teach anything as long as someone / somebody is willing to learn .....
I'm Transgendered. Or a "freak" as one commenter put it.
I picked the name "Zoe" at age 10 - it's something you know, sometimes by age 4 or earlier, always long before puberty. They weren't big on Sex Ed in those days, I thought I'd have a normal puberty like other girls - but more on that later.
Transsexuality is an Intersex condition. Intersex meaning "born with a body neither wholly male nor wholly female". Now *technically* that applies to 1 person in 60, but most don't know it unless they get extensive genetic testing, or go to a fertility clinic to try to find out why they can't seem to have children. Only about 1 in 1000 have obvious symptoms.
At the recent American Psychiatric Association annual meeting, there was a seminar on the subject:
S10. The Neurobiological Evidence for Transgenderism
1. Brain Gender Identity Prof. Sidney W. Ecker, M.D.
2. Transsexuality as an Intersex Condition Prof Milton Diamond, Ph.D.
3. Novel Approaches to Endocrine Treatment of Transgender Adolescents and Adults Norman Spack, M.D.
To over-simplify, Transsexuality means a cross-gendered neurology. Most of the body one sex, the brain the other, though other Intersex conditions can be present too, due to the same hormonal glitches in foetal development. Trans women have typically female emotions, instincts, body language, body image, and even sense of smell and hearing, all of which we now know differ considerably between the sexes.
As Prof Ecker wrote : "We showed how Transgender Brains think, smell, and hear like the opposite sex. "
This little girl, only in 5th grade, has a hard row to hoe. She'll never give birth. She'll have to take hormones, just as women who have had hysterectomies in their teens do. She'll have to have painful and protracted surgery - not without risk - just to look normal, and will always face the stigma and persecution so evident in some of these comments.
I was once very much like her. But they didn't have MRIs in those days, nor the autopsy results, nor the 300+ medical experiments and research programs that gave us this knowledge. So I pretended to be male most of my life.
If I was transsexual - as she is - I'd still be doing it. But I have one of the rarer and more spectacular Intersex conditions, like 5ARD or 17BHDD, which cause a natural sex change. Yes, it happens, rarely. I did get my puberty after all. Except it was at age 47, not 12. It turns out I was always biologically female, I just looked male at her age.
I know this is all rare and outside most people's expertience. But people like this little girl face enormous medical issues. It's hard on them. What they don't need, and certainly don't deserve, is the persecution and blatant hatred whose foetid stench pollutes this comment section. I can excuse the ignorance, that's understandable. The misgivings too. I'd feel the same if I didn't know about this stuff. But I can't excuse the malice, not the spite.
Please, read up on the subject yourselves first. Then consider what it must have been like for any girl forced to use the male locker rooms, as I was. As all girls like this one are, if they don't have such supportive parents.
" Seriously people... a penis doesn't make you male and a vagina doesn't make you female?"
That is correct, C2003mlkt. A person can have a vagina, yet be XY (male). Look it up. And as medstudent mentioned, there are dozens, if not hundreds, of other genetic quirks that can occur. Our genetics determine what we are classified as, but there are other factors that come up along the way of development. Regardless of genotype, we are ALL females to start. Then starting at about 6 weeks after conception, hormones (dictated by our genotype) determine how our bodies form. For most with the XY genotype (male), that means that the tissue that could turn into ovaries turns into testicles. But when our hormonal receptors and protein synthesis mechanisms go awry, that can all change except the genotype. There are plenty of cases where docs have had to change birth certificates because they were "wrong". Oftentimes, it comes down to the extent of the physical expression and how the parents want to raise the child. If the child has completely female parts, but is genetically male, usually the parents will raise the child as a girl and the birth certificate will reflect that. But in partial cases, the decision is not so easy.
Since hormones control both development and behavior (including thought processes), it is reasonable to expect that hormonal/protein synthesis and receptor quirks will also impact how a person perceives themselves, regardless of which body type is actually present.
Humans ourselves are likely at least partially responsible for this. When plastics and other compounds are burned, chemicals that are nearly identical to our hormones (hormone mimics) are released. This is thought to be partially to blame for why young girls are enterring puberty significantly earlier than ever before. There are plenty of cases of 7 year old girls developing breasts. Should we discriminate against them because they are "freaks"? We are also now aware that medications flushed down toilets, like birth control hormones, persist in the environment and in our drinking water supplies and have all kinds of nasty effects. You want to talk about freaks, you should see what happens with frogs and fish that live in these contaminated waters. Additionally, we have found that humans urinate out many medications that they take in, like hormones, almost unchanged. All those drugs go into our water and environment. Water treatment plants do not eliminate many of these chemicals. What happens when devoloping infants and children both breathe and drink low-dose hormones? We aren't sure, but you can bet that there are developmental effects. Same thing with pregnant mothers being exposed to those things. You want to blame someone? Blame all the folks that take medications and pee.
Whether you like it or not, the problem is very real and it is not a "choice" by these people. It is just the way things are. You'd better get over it and get used to it, the issue is not going to go away. So you all might just as well pull your children from the schools like you say you will. You can bet that, whether revealed or not, this issue and gay issues already exist in your school. Besides, you'll just be saving the rest of us tax dollars since your only realistic choice is to homeschool your kids if you want to keep them from being exposed to these issues.
For one poster, sorry but I have been born and lived my whole life north of Orono. We aren't all prejudiced. For another, I'm about as far from liberal as you can get, trust me on that. It's just that it makes no more sense to persecute these people for something that is not their choice any more than I should be able to persecute all you people born in Portland because I think you are not real Mainers. You didn't choose where you were going to be born.
So knowing all of this would you have accepted the bathroom given to you or persisited for your rights and made all the other little girlsuncomfortable? I'm just asking because this is not something most children will understand.
Justme here.... You have had a lot to say mostly defensive and have been quite repetitve actually. Let's take some of your own comments and see if you're willing to take the road of following the advice you give us. For those that are offensive, I too disagree and find it shameful, but (here it comes) DEAL WITH it as it will ALWAYS be there especially if you are force feeding the masses. Biologically, especially at a young age and in a public school system, you are male with a penis and female with a vagina. How you choose to define later in life is completely up to you as long as your attempts at "civil rights" do not violate those same rights of others. I am all for providing another alternative for some services as long as it deems reasonable which is determined by both sides using "common sense".
Ronaldo82k, I appreciate your post very much. Thanks. I would point out, though, that believe it or not, all of these abhorrent behaviors and punishments still exist in this country and in others around the world. We have not progressed that much at all because of the ignorance that is so unfortunately apparent in so many of these posts. Does point out that "majority rule" is not the be-all-end-all. The purpose of government is to protect the innocent minority from the majority, if that majority violates the health, safety, and Constitutional Rights of others.
Excellent post ZoeBrain, unfortunately I fear that some folks suffer from a different type of disorder and will continue to ignore facts at all costs. They also prefer to keep their heads in the sand and ignore issues that are everywhere and must be dealt with. Do they ever stop to think that nobody would choose to live a life of horrible discrimination and taunting? As humans, we should be supportive and show compassion, not hatred. But a bigot is a bigot and apparently they are not even willing to try and change, unlike this brave child who is working to fix her problem by becoming who she is supposed to be instead of living a lie.
I agree with the majority. Kids need to be taught right from wrong. The problem is we have so many grown up people who have never been taught anything properly and they think they know it all. They think what ever their little kid wants or feels they should get it. Hogwash! Discipline your child correctly. Explain to your child who they are and help them understand. The people who are simply wrong are the parents of this child who is a boy but for some reason is treated as a girl. Wrong! I am glad that we have some people left in the state of Maine with some morals and decency to say No this is not ok. Hopefully, and I believe it is begining to happen that People are begining to stand up and say enough is enough in Maine. Tolerance has been taken too far. Tolerance does not mean that we have to sit back and let every unjust law be passed. We have been afraid to speak up for fear of being called bigots or discriminators. Come on Maine. Let's start speaking out and taking back our state. Let's stand up and be heard for morals and decency.
The truth of the matter is this....
When you remove "The Bible" ....that was the basis for the Rule of Law, you have nothing.
this gender identity problem is just another symptom of a sick nation that has lost it's compass.
The only way back to reality for America is by the proven record of sound government through God's
written Word....anything else is a lie from Satan.
When will America wake up to this fact?
Rockporter
thank you jonnycarr!
I see I was right ,being thumbed down on the truth. Now I know it's all a lie and homosexuality is a choice. As no real female would think, do or even consider stand facing a toilet to go even with male plumbing.
Moneyman, I see your point and I do agree that hatred and prejudice will always exist, but there has to be a starting point somewhere. In the 1800's, slavery was widespread in the world. Slaves were held to be sub-human. Did the fact that slavery was considered "normal" make it right? The fact was that slaves were human and eventually that was recognized by nearly everyone in the world. Forcing people to be slaves is not very different than trying to force this girl to be something she is not. Phenotype ("biology") is not always correct and that is a fact in humans and in the wild (that holds true for plants and animals). In her brain, this girl is no more a boy than a pig is a tomato so who has the right to force this girl to be something she is not? Why should she be forced to pretend to be something she is not until "later in life"? That is severely psychologically and perhaps psychiatrically damaging.
GeneGraves, so to which "God's written Word" are you referring? I assume the English one (or more, been translated many times), or have you read it in the original Aramaic, the later Hebrew translation, Latin perhaps? Maybe you mean the Koran. Oh, wait, Sanskrit? Hindi? Bahai? Geez, when did these idiots get the impression that they own America? Don't even follow their own so called Word. Do unto others? Blessed are the meek? Turn the other cheek? Gospel of Love? Only if it suits their own agenda. Take a look at Sanford... Perfect example. Self-righteous pig. Now, if you're looking for Satan's influence, there you have it.
GeneGraves, so to which "God's written Word" are you referring? I assume the English one (or more, been translated many times), or have you read it in the original Aramaic, the later Hebrew translation, Latin perhaps? Maybe you mean the Koran. Oh, wait, Sanskrit? Hindi? Bahai? Geez, when did these idiots get the impression that they own America? Don't even follow their o
If they found a "neutral" (GOD I hope that's politically correct) bathroom for her/him to use, then what's the problem. I also fully agree with Mr. Melanson that should this child be allowed to use the opposite sex bathroom, than all children should be able to use whatever one they choose or else they are being discriminated against. Don't you just love all these discrimination complaints? There are certainly pros and many cons huh?
We must pull our children out of this pro-gay "public re-education system" and home school our own children! This is the only way we can be sure our children will not be exposed to such sickening behaviour!
To those that think this is a new thing, I grew up in this area in the 60's. We didn't deal with "those" things then so it waited until I was in my 40's and 50's. Now we don't pretend they don't exist. This young girl, if allowed to, can grow up to have a pretty normal life. And no, they don't start surgury this early in life. She could be transitioning in a few years though.
Surprisingly, many of you think this is about sex. Probably why you are getting your little minds in a twist. It's about GENDER which is whole different thing. Sexuallity is in your pants, gender is in your brain. If you realized this wasn't about sex than maybe you wouldn't be so concerned with others private lives. I could care less who shares the bathroom with me or my children. They're in seperate stalls right? They're not getting undressed in front of each other, right? So where's the problem?
That grandfather who is teaching his child to call others names is the one that child services should be concerned with. I can see him having problems with the law in a few years becuase of his "rearing".
Live and let live.
TurkeyTalker 7/1/09 10:03 a.m. post~ At the rate things are going, I'd say you have a very good chance of being everything and anything you want to be, go for it. Sue the state and Maine will be out of money in no time flat, then we can do whatever we want to do. (Rolling my eyes) How about a Transgendered Labradoodle Turkey who wants be a Governor?
I must chuckle at all the comments slamming Mr. Melanson for standing up for his grandsons rights (he does have equal rights correct?) Like a middle school boy couldn't reach his own conclusion. Oh and I am really not believing he was the only one in school "noticing" the bathroom CHOICE made by the girl/boy. This society grows sicker every day.
frostheev....Really? So who is going to work to support their families while we are home schooling our children to protect them from these ones that are so "sick"? *eyeroll*
GeneGraves,
America will never wake up to that opinion (for fact it is not).
I'm in no way on the state's side in this: but YOU have to realize that we are not all christians. We are not a nation of solely christian people. Our government doctrine and founding documents mention neither your holy book nor your savior.
We as a nation will never be fully Christian. The sooner Christians figure that out, the sooner we can all work together within logic and reason and put superstition back in the house of worship where it belongs.
Taxpayer:Actually quite wrong there.....8:30 AM Usually quite educated. Seems you need to maybe get more educated on that. I am not advocating for someone to have to use a bathroom they are not comfortable using.....maybe there should be more bathrooms! I just do not feel this grandfather is right in how he is going about it....."using" his young grandson to make some point. There are other ways he could have gone about it, rather than condoning his grandson's bullying and harassment of another child. That is not what you should teach. No one said he has to agree or teach his child that he is in favor of anything (in this case transgender orientation), but his "values" do not seem to be anything a lot of people would want to emulate. There is a difference between teaching a child to look down on other people and just disapproving of something.
donnelly: Not all the people you call "idiots" are from away. And perhaps you might like to live in a part of the country that is more "conservative" or whatever you want to call it. Most people know that New England and the Northeast has always been the more progressive, "liberal" part of the country. Guess you were born in the wrong place if you do not like it. Maine people in particular have always been known for their independent thinking (in other words, people do not all think the same; vote the same,etc.)
I have a hard time understanding how a 5th grader can know that they are transgender. Seems like parents influence. Maybe they should just put "Penis" and "Vagina" on the doors instead of boy/girl or men/women.
The bible is a book of mythology just like the other books of god's such as Greek, Latin, and Norse. The bible was written, at least three generations removed, from the original participants from stories handed down through the years. Then, translated many times through several different languages by men. Men that had their own agenda's and values, and they added and changed things to suit their own purposes. Wake up folks.
If you truly believe the bible then follow it. Is this not written as one of the Ten Commandments ?
Mark 12:28-31 (King James Version)
31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
This is a far cry from "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, unless he is different from thee." which seems to be the common practice of most of today's religion's and church's. Where is the love and compassion and acceptance for fellow human beings?
Cher, in listening to you talk about the grandfather using his grandson to make a point I have a question. And for the record I agree with you for the most part on the grandfather. My question is do you feel that he is the only person in the story using their child to make a point?
NikkiAnne54: Excellent comments.
Many of us in this world do try and be very mindful of that Commandment......"There is none other commandment greater than these."
Not all of us who disagree with allowing people or children of the opposite sex to use the bathrooms of the opposite sex promote hate in our children. We are trying to promote common sense and moral sense. And we are trying to keep our kids safe.This is opening up a "Pandora box''. Do you know what kind of legal legistaltion this will open up? Do not compare this to the issue of slavery. You cannot compare the two. Slavery was morally wrong. It benefitied society and our conscience to end slavery. Encouraging this type of behavior does not benefit society.
How will buildings with public access determine who is a transgender? Will they be card carrying? Will you have a list by the door saying who is allowed inside facilities where more personal human contact is involved?
Will there be pedophiles who will take advantage of this?
Seriously...this does not make any sense.
duckwa: I get your question. And this is a bit "complicated' situation. I speak as objectively as I can......I have never been remotely involved in anything like this, so like many others, just trying to "figure it out" in some way.
I think maybe something "practical" has to be done concerning bathrooms that gives the best solution for all. Time will tell with that.
As for using children to make a point......yes and no. One reinforced bullying and hurting someone. As for the family with the transgender child......I can see what you are saying. I am not sure they are reinforcing putting someone down. That is the significant difference. But if you think they mostly using their son to make some point, well, I cannot ,nor will not, try and dissuade you to see it differently. I think they mostly just want their child to be able to go the bathroom without being bullied and harassed.
I am not saying someone should have something jammed down their throats. People are going to see this differently. I hope some "solution" can be worked out that everyone can just use a bathroom! I do agree with someone above who wrote about certain people always making a big "sexual" point out of everything (I do not mean you.) There is so much more to it than that. And as a woman, I would be more concerned about some perverted man hanging out in a bathroom for no good purposes. But you are not going to see that like I do, of course.
I think it is confusing for many and an uncomfortable situation for many. Hope it can be worked out, in the end, and people can move on....and just use a bathroom! (pretty essential stuff!!)
C'mon Sally 24 ..... My assumption is that just might be your age and / or you don't have children of your own. Private stalls or not, boys and girls do not belong in the same bathroom (especially a closed in area) together. Even us adults, well most of us, know better and accept this as proper behavior.
For those of you yelling about the individual rights of someone with a minority issue, what about those of us who wish not to have our own rights violated while we are obeying rules of behavior and common sense. REALLY people .... can we get a grip.
Now to be fair, this "common sense" that I have to keep mentioning has two sides of responsibility, as Mr. Melanson should not be teaching nor tolerating this type of behavior from his own children / grandchildren. "Two wrongs don't make a right" Most of all, just because someone does something outside of our tolerance does not mean that we have the right to perform that same behavior.
NikkiAnne54 .... Much as a parent loves their child, yet they must discipline and let them know when they have gone beyond the boundaries in their behavior. The love is still there, but to accept sin without repentance is against God's Word. You need to read the entire scripture to truly understand what you are challenging instead of being mainstream and quoting only that which works for you.
C'mon moneyman: I have children in their 20's and a 6 yr old granddaughter. Stop making assumptions. Just because I do not view things exactly as you do, does not mean you can make assumptions about certain things.
As I said before, I do not believe in having anything rammed down anyone's throat or beliefs, either way. You read into things and comments just what you want to and conveniently overlook the other points being bad. C'mon, moneyman!
What I'd like to know is if he is transgender (being a boy but feeling like a girl) not transsexual (a man who wants to change his male genitalia into female genitalia), what happens when he wants to start dating? Does he want to date boys or girls? I'm a little confused. Are there any transgender adults that can explain this one?
My sons are 6 and 16 and both of them have been taught to treat others with respect. No matter how someone dresses, looks, etc. they both would know better than to harrass them, verbally or physically. If this child feels that they are of opposite gender and the family supports them---SUPER. So many families turn their backs on loved ones due to sexuality. Reading these comments, one can see that it probably happens more than we know. Sad. And for the record, I do believe in God and go to church.
This can't be compared to slavery? Of course it can. In both instances someone is being treated as less than a human and being forced to be something that they are not. Then there is the biblical connection that people keep bringing up. Well, according to the bible, slavery was NOT morally wrong. Among other places in the bible, Deuteronomic Code and Leviticus both specifically allow and promote slavery. In fact, many parts of the bible give instructions as to the proper ways to acquire and manage slaves. So much for the bible being morally correct about things. And don't you think that the ending of slavery in this country opened up it's own Pandora's Box? How was the freedom to be accomplished? Would the owners be compensated for the loss of their "property"? Would the slaves be compensated for their suffering? What would be done to regulate these newly freed persons? Even though they were no longer "property", were they humans with human rights? As history shows, even though slavery "ended", the discrimination and discriminatory laws continued for over a century. Just because a troubling issue is going to be difficult does NOT mean it should be ignored.
moneyman: re 3:02 PM. In that comment, I was addressing, only, the issue being discussed here; use of bathrooms by transgenders and others.
Re 3:02 PM...Cannot type today, it seems! Should have said, "You read into things and others' comments just what you want and conveniently overlook the other points being made......C'mon...."
I agree with you berquis, there have been very discouraging comments iposted n response to this ruling. Children can be taught to love or to hate. Would this transgendered child be safe in the boy's room with Mr. Melanson's grandson? Many transgendered individuals have been violently assaulted, and middle school can be some of the child's most difficult years. The gblt community is making some progress in civil rights and acceptance, but as illustrated by many comments today, we have miles to go.
lol, and we wonder what is wrong with todays society!!... Useless to try to explain!
moneyman, you really don't get it, there is no sin involved here. The parents have done and are doing everything they can to help there child. and the therapy and counseling have led them on this path. You can not force or coerceany child into feeling this way or not feeling this way. I know from first hand experience. When I was 7 years old, in 1961, I finally figured out after struggling since I was 5, that I was supposed to be a girl. I told my mom and they did everything they could to change my mind. I was lectured, "you're a boy", "boys don't play with dolls" "boys don't cry". Then I was punished including spankings with a belt and grounded from playing with girls and even from playing with my sister's. The doctor's tried all kinds of treatments including aversion therapy and electroshock treatments (imagine being 7 years old and going through electroshock therapy). All their efforts failed. All they managed to do was to make me keep silent about the way I felt. They killed my self-esteem by making me believe I was defective, that there was something horribly wrong with me. This is what happened to me. I became depressed, a loner, not worthy of having friends. I became painfully shy and couldn't look people in the eye. This is what "helping me" did to me!
It took me almost 50 years before I was able to accept that I was a transsexual after nearly commiting suicide twice and spending time locked in a hosspital ward. I transitioned a little over two years ago and my life has turned around. I have never been happier in my life. I don't have any grudges over what my parent's did to me back in the 60's. They were trying to help me the only way they knew how. Things are different these days, there is much knowledge about what this condition is and more effective help available to help a child through this. Supportive parents are the best help any child can get. This is not a choice! No one chooses to go through the pain of losing friends and family, jobs and homes for what some people think is a perversion. The cost's and pain of surgery are extreme. Please have some compassion for these kids. They are not doing this to anyone. It is not a choice for them.
chersully2000 .... So, are you saying that you would want your 6 year old granddaughter in the same bathroom as a 10 - 12 year old boy or older. C'mon ......
OMG Nikkianne: I am sure that you had to take a deep breath before putting yourself and experience out there like that. KUDOS to you! Those of us who have never 'been there' could never understand completely, but as human beings we need to show some compassion. Some never will but just know that there are those of us that ALWAYS will. :)
berquis .... I too do not agree with the verbal harassment. When you mention teaching your children about respect, I would assume that respect includes the surrounding of others to include the bathroom of the opposite or different gender.
What's wrong with today's society is in part that people need to judge and evaluate others, constantly. The whining on the comment section here is amazing. This situation doesn't impact us, it impacts the little kid in question. She needs grownups to give her a little support, and make a bathroom available to her where she feels safe. That's it. Instead, we get judgments from people who are angry (at a fifth grader!!) and feel the need to vent. Pathetic. No one cares what the trolls on her think about what makes a boy a boy, which bathroom is correct, "back in my day, a penis meant you were a boy!", and all the other useless commentary. Get a hobby. Take up knitting. Spare us your small-minded whining.
Now look---this is NOT a "social justice issue" at all. I have worked for 15 years day in and day out (professionally and personally) advocating for kids and families, and helping them to deal with their family and personal issues, helping them in school settings, etc. This is just preposterous stuff that makes it that much harder for REAL social justice work to get accomplished. It's a sham and it gives social justie a bad name. I get to see stuff like this from the inside............behind the curtain.............and I KNOW what's really going on in situations like this. I KNOW the players involved and I know what they're really all on about....
As I told PATRICIA RYAN (head of the Human Rights Commission) when I talked with her yesterday, the problem for the new "Human Rights Commisars" is that we are generally not DUMB: we HAVE done our reading---Orwell, Kafka, Darkness at Noon, etc.. We did it a long time ago---when we were young and had it set before us as a task, or took it upon ourselves to do our own reading. The HRC can not simply just make the last 150 years of human thought and writings and truth go away--sorry about that!!. . So we know what's what. We know an Elmer Gantry when we see one. I also told her that the MHRC is clearly a rogue organization, that's descending further into madness with every session that's held inside that Nuthouse they call an office. "Group Dynamics" and groupthink, indeed!! Not a sane, rational voice in the whole lot, anymore. But! It's not a "leftwing" or "liberal" bunch----after all, when you go beyong the looking glass and descend into the realm of Kafka, there IS no left or right, no up or down anymore. There is just craziness. Finally, I told Pat that we who care about social justice WILL get rid of the HRC and all such similar farces. It may take 20 or 30 or 40 years, but the HRC CAN NOT GO ON. And it won't. We WILL utterly destroy it. Not out of malice towads those on it. (indeed, public service or volunteerism is something that many of us are also involved in, and we respect it). No, we will do it out of social justice and compassion for our communities and those in them. And for the kids of tommorrow, God bless 'em.
What's been done in the name of equality and justice!!!!!.................
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
Where is the domestic tranquility?
moneyman, why do you believe being transgendered or transsexual is a sin? Even Joan of Arc crossdressed and lived as a man and fought alongside men for christianity and they made her a saint. What are getting from your bible that says this is a sin and needs repenting? and homosexuality, man-loving-a man and woman-loving a woman was never sinful untill the Jews, needing to build up their nations population declared that man can love a woman to promote procreation. This "rule'" was taken up by the Christians a hundrend years later.
something is not quite right about this 5th grader........ more needs to be known. Was the child mis-diagnosed at birth??? Has this child been molested???
we do not use our children to get points across.
discrimination among the older folks now.....as well. they are not allowed into housing if they are smokers....!!!!!!!
God, i'm glad i am not a killer.....
C'mon moneyman! It sure is pretty sad when you know what someone is going to say before they even write it. As soon as I put that about my young granddaughter, I figured you would come back with that.....as some of you all sound the same.....and seem to get fixated on just one thing and do not even listen to another's point of view. You persuade me not at all, though. You have a right to your opinion....others of us have a right to our's. I repeat.....I would be concerned about some perverted adult male in those bathrooms if a young girl or child was in the bathroom or wherever....that is what I would be concerned with...I wrote that before.....got it??
Once again and finally.....you have a right to your viewpoint....and others' have a right to theirs.
NikkiAnne54: I am so very sorry of what you had to go through and endure. Just awful. I hope things have gotten so much better for you. You did not deserve any of that, of course. I just re-read what you wrote.....and was glad to read you are so much happier now!
btw....the repeated thumbs down is not supposed to be used for hiding people's opinions, but for hiding seriously gross comments.
I can't even try to BS this, moneyman. I don't know what I would say or do as a mom. What I do know is that if this girl(boy)-don't mean to be rude by adding boy, just don't know how to do it :(- was being threatened by other boys and picked on (do you remember grade school???) she needed to be kept safe.
Thank you berquis and chersully2000, this was very hard to keep buried all those years and Yes, life has been awesome since I transitioned. My family, coworkers, and friends have been very accepting and supportive. I had to prepare myself to lose everything and everyone I loved and held dear to me and it turned out I lost very little.
Nikki....I am so sorry for all that happened to you! As for Jean D'arc, she only dressed as a guy to protect herself (from men and wounds).
I say the boy uses the boys bathroom until he has a sex change operation. Technically, he's a boy right now. Otherwise, I guess we need to have a "family" bathroom for boys and girls who wish to use each other's restrooms. Personally, I would not feel comfortable using a restroom where one of the opposite sex was in the stall next to mine. Admit it, we have some strange folks out there who don't respect the privacy of others and would think nothing of invading another individual's privacy.
Add another bathroom and this topic is no longer a topic.
and he was being kept safe- he was offered the faculty restroom.
kevin of bangor
You are so mistaken....
God made you....you where made in His image, sir....whether you believe that or not, that is what God said in Genesis.
You where made with a vacuum in your heart to be occupied by your Creator.
You can go on all your life if you want to , fooling yourself into thinking that your in charge, ,but your not.
It says in Gopd's Word....that even though, some of us do not believe
...when we look at nature all around us, that is His Signature and we are without excuse to not see His handiwork.
But I must tell you, you can accomplish nothing without accepting His Son Jesus Christ to open your eyes.
Rockporter
NikkiAnne54~ I am very sorry for all you went through as a child and I'm also glad that you understand that your parents did the best they could with the limited knowledge they had at the time. I am in no way against this child, but rather feel that we also need to allow our children the privacy they deserve under certain circumstances. Having boys in girls restrooms will eventually mean that we must have an adult who can monitor these rooms at all times, just to protect those who would abuse the situation.
God I wish I had figured this, "Little Scam" out when I hit puberty! Va Va Voom!!
reaganite...please direct me to good sites where I can get more info on what you stated. Thanks....It would be very much appreciated. I believe many social programs have been hijacked.
What if I thought I was a bird? Could I go live in a Bird House? Would I pay taxes to the State of Maine? Birds don't pay taxes! I want to be a bird! Are there any other birds out there tonight?
I know the person who brought this complaint...........have since 5th grade. If you only knew!!!....
We would like to know actually. I was wondering why there weren't any parents on here from the school stating their opinions.
Well, birds have brains the size of a peas.. so sure. You'll fit right in ;-)
Just kidding, I couldn't help it.
@NikkiAnne54 - thank you for sharing your story. I'm sorry about what happened, but I'm glad things are looking better.
Elizabeth ann. My knowledge on this is not based on reading websites or newspapers or reading the BS that the govt. and its agencies spins. It comes from years of firsthand experience. It's hard to talk about this stuff.the curtain of silence is already descending. The MHRC has EXTRAORDINARY powers, in case you did not know.
But try "Real Maine News.com" Good post on this.
Good luck!
GeneGraves: look it up in Genesis? Who WROTE it? a MAN, not a god! Moses may have felt inspired, but he was still the one who put pen to paper. Don't even bring up Sodom and Gomorrah. Those people threatened to hurt unwilling people with their behaviour. This young boy that wants to be a girl is not hurting anyone. Maybe he DOES want to use a stall to urinate...did anyone think of that? Maybe he wants to sit to do that? As long as people are not even looking under stalls, how would they even know he was there unless they saw him enter? In any case, when you gotta go ya gotta go. I myself have used the men's room when I was desperate to pee or had diarrhea!
this is sick who wants to use the bathroom with someone of the opposite sex is sitting in the next stall beside you this would make me very uncomfortable i dont care what sex they think they are. anyone who could do that doesnt need equal right they need some serious help with their mental health problems. give them their own bathroom thats the only fair way. 3 bathrooms mens , ladies and others.
Gays and transgenders suffer from some type of genetic disorder. I don't see why they just don't use that angle and argue for their rights under the ADA.
Your all sick! We who do not believe in this behavior are considered discrimanators or ignorant! Being normal is a sin
according to most nowadays!
My Bible does not support this behavior at all!!! Maybe some should take time and read it from front to back. King James or American Standard
Don't argue your pointless point with me, I believe what I believe We are truly becoming a "sick" nation!
The Maine Civil Extraliberties Union strikes again. What a useless organization.
Royalfrisky, your bible also condoned slavery and wife beating. Both were considered property. Not a book I'd bring up to argue morality.
royalfrisky: Well apparently your bible says " ...there is neither male nor female, for we are all one in God" (Galatians 3:28). Is that a "pointless argument"?
What you wrote is a bunch of crap !
ZoeBrain you sound like a freak.
I fully understand that the parents of this child are trying to help in the best way they know how. I do not believe that involves allowing a physically male student to utilize a bathroom that physically female children also use, regardless of their psychological gender. I also believe that the School made the appropriate accomodation by providing a separate bathroom for this student. The School has the duty of protecting all pupils. This includes the girls that have a physically male student in their bathroom. As for the parents of this child, shame on you for dragging this into the news. I can imagine the pain and humilation this child must already face, and how much worse it will be now that it has gone this far. I am all for equal rights, however, EQUAL is the operative word.
medstudent - Don't tell me I'm wrong without telling me why I'm wrong.
Bottom line - this young man needs a lot of psychological help.
"The Maine Human Rights Commission ruled Monday that the Orono School Department discriminated against a transgender child by denying her access to the girls bathroom."
"transgender CHILD'...... give me strength.
boys in the boys room, girls in the girls!!! HAVE SURGERY!!!!! This is a crock of ====!!!
icuucme..... I agree with you a 3rd bathroom that says "others"
'leftme' wrote at 8:43 AM "What do you know in the 5th grade?" This is a good question. A 5th grader knows how to love or hate, by that time they will know how to choose their behavior and act out what they've been taught or act in a different way. If Grampy discriminates by calling names and bullying then the Grandkids may do the same unless there's a loving role model to teach them to respect others.
the truth about it all. when approached the school dept lied about what was going on.and the only way to get the truth to come out was a law suit.the truth is that the little boy will have full acess to anyting the other girls have including the shower room.the truth ismy grandson was denied acess to the girls restroom because of his gender. sounds like special rigts to me.no one cares about his rights.it dosen't further the gay agenda.fact i've been involved in gay rights issues for 10 years.fact my grandson did this with full knowledge that this is the only way to bring this out in public witout being called a lier.fact i never plced this transgender childs name out to be identified as a perticular person only child x. f act i cannot prove there is a god and you cannot prove your theroy on gender idenity,it's only a theroy.the fact that they hid his idenity would have been even worse if my grandson would have gotten romantically involved thinking this a girl only to be devestated if he inocently kissed him to find out he kissed a boy.apparently you dont know about mathew shepard.fact there has been sexual gestures from this male twards other students and complaint went ignored .fact california had its gay marriage chance and they asked what will they teach our kids .well i have that answer and i will be out voicing this fact.enough is enough its time the people of this state stop thinking how will this affect us .call your state rep. and say enough is enough grand father and proud of him
Aclem1 7/1/09 8:26 a.m. post~ I am very understanding of your grandson's needs and the sensitive nature of this subject. However, please think of the girls and boys who value their own privacy. Many of them probably don't care if your grandson is a transgendered child, but because we teach our children to be modest, how do you think the young girl who's perhaps doesn't understand her own body is going to feel when she has your "grandson" looking at her in the shower room? We teach our children that their bodies are private, not public. We teach the girls and the boys that it's ok to share limited information with their own gender, so why should our girls have to be forced to have a male in their bathroom or shower room?
How will you feel when all restrooms turn into unisex restrooms that any adult man can use? I have an adult daughter who was recently stalked in a woman's bathroom. The man was standing on the toilet, watching my daughter urinate. She happened to look up and see this BAS*ARD looking down on her. She felt humiliated and was scared out of her mind. We have to protect our children and just thinking about being forced to use male and female bathrooms where young kids could be ganged up on by one gender or the other, literally makes me ill.
Again, I reiterate, adding a third bathroom labeled "FAMILY or UNISEX" would be the answer to this issue.
ok i understand transgender and what it means,my problem is with leting a boy into the girls bathroom before he has a sex change,aferwards well it is what it is,but its a strange situation at best.peace
Your Grandson called the child hateful names, had no understanding of peoples differences and he should be allowed to use the girls bathroom?! So he could cause even more problems? Gender identity has been proven. Search it. It's a difficult life when a person tries to fit in and others don't let them.
If it has a teapot it's a boy. If it has a doughnut it's a girl. Plain and simple.
If you have male genetalia you use the boy's room, female genetalia the girl's room-unless you surgically choose otherwise. The Human Rights commission has WAY to much power. What about the rights of the girls in the bathrooms? unbelievable.
I might add that if your "grandson" was to go to an ER because of an accident, they would label him a male... would they not? He's not had a sex change operation. He is and will be considered a male until that time, therefore, he should be using the boys/mens bathroom and shower room not the girls/women's bathroom or shower room.
Surely you understand that your "grandson" is not the majority here. The number of girls and boys who are as their gender dictates, are the majority. Again, I'm in no way faulting your "grandson" but I do feel that we need to allow our boys and girls to continue on with who they are without having to feel out of place in their own bathroom or shower room. Do you think your "grandson" will feel comfortable having to look at a bunch of pre-teen or teenage girls with budding or C cup breasts? If my daughter had to share a shower room with your "grandson", I'd take her out of the school system. She shouldn't be forced to endure that kind of invasion. I wouldn't want that for my daughter anymore than I would want a girl in my son's bathroom or shower room. Neither is acceptable in my opinion.
How do you feel about having a Unisex bathroom in your "grandson's" school? Would that suffice?
GeneGraves you can have your faith, your bible and your invisible sky wizard all you desire. My life improved when I was able to say out loud that I am an atheist. I enjoy not being brain washed anymore. Religion is for the weak minded such as you. An invisible sky wizard did not make me. My mother and father had sex one night, my father released semen into my mother and BAM!!!! I was conceived. No invisible sky wizard was required.
I have also accomplished a lot in my life without the help of the invisible sky wizard. I have worked in law enforcement. I was a Vol. Firefighter for many years as well. I have accomplished a lot in my life without any sort of faith. I have a great job, a nice car, a nice place to live and money in the bank. My life is pretty damn sweet without the help of an invisible sky wizard.
I have morals and values. I respect others and still do a lot of good in the world and all without the need to believe in an invisible sky wizard and a book written by people that lived in huts and had very little education. As an atheist I have a great life. You should try it. You would become a much happier person.
Born an atheist and will die an atheist.
boogyman - transsexuals are specifically excluded from coverage by ADA. They have no rights to fight for. Thank Senator Strom Thurmond for that. He didn't manage to exclude Blacks too though, so we can be grateful for that.
aclem1 - OK, which is it? First you imply that this girl is actually a perverted straight boy out to prey on girls, and in the next breath a gay boy out to entrap unsuspecting innocent lambs like your grandson. Bit of a contradiction there, the only constant is your disapproval of something you neither understand, nor care to investigate. And your apparent grooming of your grandson as a sociopath and sexual predator, from all accounts. I would like to hear your side of the story though before rushing to judgment there. You can see how we can be left with that impression though.
You state that Gender Identity is only a Theory. Yes it is, like the Theory of Gravity. It's not something obscure or subtle: you can see the differences in the brain quite clearly on MRI scans, and other simple tests. Here's just a few of the papers available online, so you can check for yourself.
Regional gray matter variation in male-to-female transsexualism by Luders E, Sánchez FJ, Gaser C, Toga AW, Narr KL, Hamilton LS, Vilain E. in Neuroimage. 2009 Mar 30.
Male-to-female transsexuals show sex-atypical hypothalamus activation when smelling odorous steroids. by Berglund et al Cerebral Cortex 2008 18(8):1900-1908;
Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041
Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism and sexual orientation. Swaab Gynecol Endocrinol (2004) 19:301–312.
A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. by Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70.
A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity. by Garcia-Falgueras et al Brain. 2008 Dec;131(Pt 12):3132-46.
This has got nothing to do with Gay rights, and in fact, many Gays are just as transphobic as you are. Remember, the Democrat-controlled Senate in NH recently OK'd "Gay Marriage" - but voted *unanimously* to deny rights to trans people that gays have enjoyed there for over a decade. So you're in good company, with Democrats and Gays agreeing with you.
Finally, since you appear to be a God-Fearing man, please read Matthew 19:12, and Isaiah 56:3-5. You see, "freaks" like me, and like this little girl, are mentioned in the Bible. For enduring the misunderstanding, the bigotry, the presecution and irrational hatred from such as, well, yourself, we've been promised a special reward in Heaven. Of course you're free to ignore the scripture just as you're free to ignore the science. All too many people do. They know what the Bible says, so never actually bother to read it.
Sometimes I think the only reason people like me - who get natural sex changes - were put on the planet is to show people like you that things aren't that simple. And that the two greatest commandments, that all others are based on, are : Love God; Be Kind. If in obeying any of the others you contradict either of those, you're missing the point.
Well said Zoe.. Makes people think and learn.
Honestly, it's the righteous who preach hatred who will go to a 'special' place when they die. 'Feel good' everyone else who is loving and knows the truth in their heart. Love is supreme, brings people together, and moves our spirit forward.
Amazed: Think you have something mixed up. The grandfather writing the post above your's is the grandfather of the other boy, not the transgender child!
You need to read the whole thing again as you are confusing the people ...the grandfather is talking about his grandson who was involved in the whole incident but his grandson is not the transgender child. Don't you get this?
Well said, Zoe, is right.
Chersullyh2000 7/1/09 9:39 post~ I apologize for confusing people... I misunderstood and thought that the grandfather who was writing was that of the transgendered child
I still stand by my statements and beliefs.
Amazed: Yes, I understand that....and was not trying to change your mind. Just wanted to point that out....as it could easily be confusing.
Okay, for those of you who aren't girls of twelve or thirteen - or don't remember being that age - girls use the girls' bathroom for a lot more than using the toilet and washing their hands. HELLO! Can anyone spell "Period"? The last thing some young girl who is discovering for the very first time that she has a little blood stain on her underpants, is to have some BOY walk in on her while she's desperately trying to figure out where to get the change to buy a tampon or how to undress enough without being embarrassed to wash the blood off her pants! Give me a break! What's next? Unisex locker rooms in the gym? In what universe is it EVER acceptable for a boy to break into the privacy of the girl's bathroom? How sick is that? We won't even BEGIN to discuss why on earth the parents of this so-called 'transgendered' boy ever gave him even the slightest little bit of encouragement to thik of himself that way! Look, we all have problems, all have things we have to deal with. That's just life! But to encourage this young man to take on a role he WAS NOT born for is just pathetic and reprehensible.
This kid must be 13-14 by now. So...Lets give him the Eunuch test from Mel Brook's 'History of the World Part 1'.
klgrube - perhaps you can tell me how parents could encourage their child to have a cross-gendered brain? Different cells, different sizes of structures? I know those medical papers are a bit heavy going, but surely the title "Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus" is clear enough?
Inconvenient facts won't just go away if you ignore them. If you don't believe them, then by all means, check for yourself. All those papers are online.
Here, I'll quote from another paper, Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism and sexual orientation. Swaab Gynecol Endocrinol (2004) 19:301–312.
"Solid evidence for the importance of postnatal social factors is lacking. In the human brain, structural diferences have been described that seem to be related to gender identity and sexual orientation."
To make it clear "Solid evidence for the importance of postnatal social factors is lacking". It's not a matter of parental upbringing, they've checked that. In fact, there are only two things we know are causal, in some cases (but not all): some gene sequences, and some therapeutic drugs administered early in pregnancy. There are certainly others we haven't identified yet.
Androgen Receptor Repeat Length Polymorphism Associated with Male-to-Female Transsexualism by Hare at al Biological Psychiatry Volume 65, Issue 1, Pages 93-96 (1 January 2009)
A polymorphism of the CYP17 gene related to sex steroid metabolism is associated with female-to-male but not male-to-female transsexualism by Bentz et al Fertility and Sterility , Volume 90 , Issue 1 , Pages 56 - 59
Prenatal Exposure to Diethylstilbestrol (DES) in Males and Gender-Related Disorders: Results from a 5-Year Study by Kerlin et al
The latter showed that in addition to it causing a number of obvious Intersex conditions (the reason the drug was withdrawn in the 1980's), DES caused 1 in 5 of 46xy (usually male) foetusses to become transsexual women. There's some evidence that certain other chemicals in the environment may have similar effects, though not nearly as pronounced. However, until further work is done, we can't say for sure, just that it's most likely.
You do the parents of this little girl a great disservice, and an even greater injustice, with your allegations. Allegations that are provable incorrect, and which can only be motivated by wilful blindness to the evidence already in these cmments, or something even worse: malice. Personally, I think you've just been careless, not bothering to read something which you "know" can't be true. But in the process, you've condemned innocent parties. That's bearing false witness when it's the result of negligence, rather than pardonable lack of knowledge. All too human, I've been guilty of it myself, but please do some reading first, Ok?
Hooray for sanity! The state affirmed it's anti-discrimination law that was passed in 2005. Good decision.
Hate, bigotry, and discrimination, disguised as religious beliefs, is so Christian like don't you think?
i have read the reports on transgender. still a lot of speculation and nothing solid.and you can find quacks in any field. still the point is the let one child use the girls bathroom and not my grandson because he is straight.they discreminated because of his gender.this gender troubled child will be able to use the girls locker room and until the state get the message this is wrong i will do any thing i can to exployt it.i can clog the courts with law suits ,school protest, and possiably run for office.i have not taught my grandson to hate .but i surly showed him what kind of screwed up policy a democrat will make.in the past several months i have changed some hard core democrats because of this bull and i cant wait untill my grand daughter get to school you will here this again.proud grandfather and rocking the boat
What amazes me about all of this, is nowhere have I read that the parents tried to get help for this child. Do we know the whole story?? (seeing that "we"--society--are being directed by the courts to change to accomodate this child) do we, society, have a right to know if the parents encouraged this behavior at an even earlier age? Something isn't quite right here. You all are suggesting that the grandfather encouraged the other boy to call he/she names, etc. I see no difference. Maybe this is how this child "is born"?? We are trying to change him, have we (society) tried changing he/she?? Gets a little confusing? We (again, society) are tying to change one persons views, beliefs, etc, and not another. Talk all you want about the harrased child being born this way. How are we to know that the other child was not born "that way"??? You say his grandfather encouraged him, I am thinking the transgendered childs parents encouraged he/she, instead of attempting to encourage he/she to be a male, . In todays society, we have become acceptable of all; gay, straight, feminine males, masculine females, and the list goes on. Why do these parents not encourage this child to be what he/she is? A male who has feminine tendencies?? Is it easier for them to let the child continue without any encouragement from them to be a feminine male?? Or is it easier to prove THEIR point, of "rights"?? As some have said on here, at this age, no child could know he wants to be a TOTAL girl, without outside influences!!!
We are concentrating on "hate", instead of the crux of this issue!! Kids are cruel by nature, just revisit "Lord of the Flies". As one said, we are all born athiests, we also are all born with a cruel steak in us, and are either taught or not taught, to be "kind"?? Yet we, society, are attempting to change one behavior, and not another!!
Did I wake up in San Fransisco this morning....
Our country is doomed.
"and i cant wait untill my grand daughter get to school you will here this again.proud grandfather and rocking the boat"
Liberals only like activism when they are the activists!
There is a gene that has been discovered for alcoholism and other addictions. Does that mean that the behavior should be encouraged and allowed.
Elizabethann,
Those addictions ruin lives. Homosexuality does not. Comparing the two is like comparing Christians to Islamic terrorists... they're both of faith after all.
Can aclem1 be for real? I'd assumed the grandfather in question had many problems, but the blithering, rambling, illiterate, and ignorant nature of aclem1's posts makes it too easy to dismiss this dangerous, evil man as some kind of idiot, unworthy of concern. Make no mistake, this kind of maniacal determination will not be stopped by facts, reality, common sense, values, morality, or anything in the real world. This man is seriously disturbed. I can only hope somebody does something for his grandson to straighten him out before he becomes the next sensationalist news item. This is just the kind of parental influence that grows serial killers and other sociopaths.
An addiction would not ruin a life except for the one person with the addiction if it was kept in the confines of his area. It is when the addict goes into the streets and work place and infringes on the rights of others then it becomes a problem. If someone chooses to be gay that is his choice. But when he goes into society and wants to change society to fit his lifestyle than there is a problem.
I don't think you can compare Christians with Islamic terrorists. I am not going to kill others for the virgins waiting for me in heaven. Your backsided comment is typical of the method used to promote the homosexual agenda.
tedlick What about comparing Christian terrorists to Islamic terrorists? More fitting wouldn't you say?
I have the answer "Unisex Bathrooms!" That solves the problem!
Elizabethann,
My only agenda is to get the same guarantees and protections under the government that are extended to married couples today. Nothing more, nothing less. This blow-hard attitude about the "gay agenda" when there is an OBVIOUS "fundie agenda" in this country is sickening.
And as a family member to addicts, I can tell you from experience that even locked into their own little world, they do all kinds of harm to those around them.
Lastly, you being Christian is choice: my being homosexual is not. That is a typical method used to promot the fundie agenda.
And no, Christians have never killed for the virgins: it's always been for other reasons that Christianity has been used throughout history (from the Crusades through Jim Jones) to kill others.
Don't forget control ted, it's also used to control.
fry them all let god sort them out, we do not have to tolerate this immorality. Levitcus 20:13
Thanks PropMgr,
Nice to hear from the Jewish community in regards to immorality.
You are Jewish, are you not? I hope so, cuz Jesus brought forth a new law... or so I'm told every time someone questions eating seafood or dudes with long hair.
Tedlick, your stereotypes never cease to amaze me. If I say gays are just promiscuous and spread STDs then I would be considered a bigot for stereotyping. Then you would point out many well rounded monogamous gay couples you know. On the other hand you pick out and evil deeds done by those claiming to be Christians, ignoring thousands of years of selfless charitable deeds, and then pin them on Christianity as a whole. Can you say double standard?
I am bothered by the referring to this person as a "she" HE'S a HE.
Are you telling me that the bullish "christians" on these forums aren't stereotyping? C'mon, man, you're smarter than that.
The double standard is intentional. It's my point exactly duckwa... such generalized concepts are flat wrong on both parties, but just as capably done by both parties.
The generalization that homosexuality is just as harmful and vile to one's life as drug addiction is just as preposterous as saying that all Christians support historical concepts such as the Crusades and what Jones did: kill in the name of faith.
I know and readily admit that not all Christians are hateful monsters intent on the forcing the world to "follow my faith or else"... but I also know and readily admit that not all gays are hanging out in bars with no butt in their jeans. Stereotypes, though based in small subsets of the reality we all share, are harmful to not only the stereotyped group, but to the heterogeneous culture in which that group lives. Everyone suffers.
I love how all anybody wants to talk about is the old man and his grandson. That issue is a smoke screen. There have been rules and laws on the books already that make harassment wrong. Nobody wants to address the actual affects of the ruling. It sets a precedent and nobody will address what that means going forward. What about locker rooms and other situations. What about class trips? Will this student share sleeping arrangements with the girls? What about sports, if you are going ignore what nature has done and base it on what the child feels inside then would he/ she be allowed to play on the girls team? There is no doubt that this poor kid got dealt a rough hand no matter how you feel about it. But where do one persons rights stop and another's begin? And unisex bathrooms for grade school???!! Please!!
Tedlick I will take you at face value that you are trying to make a point, but will also say that after reading yours and other pro-gay rights posters on this site and their weekly if not daily attacks on religion..... your point is being missed. C'mon, man, you're smarter than that. Even my 10 year old understands concepts like 2 wrongs don't make a right, lead by example, and do unto others.
I agree with you completely duckwa. This is going to bring up tons of issues.
Yes, duckwa, I know. Part of it is fun... part of it is frustration.
But I have to admit you're right. If you look around at many of my postings of late, I've desperately tried not to lump all religious folk into the ugly pot of judgmental freaks. Guess I didn't do so well this morning in here.
The causes of Trangenderism is much debated, the existance of it is not! To equate in with homosexuality is to totally not understand the issue.
I have yet to see a case personally where "discouragement" of a childrens trans behavior has done anything but delay dealing with the problem. It's a much easier transition in your teens than waiting until your 50's!!
People that encourage hate and harrassment, for whatever reason, are at best ignorant, at worst evil.
Well hey, thanks for the honest post @1:06 , can't say its never happened to me on different issues. Its easy to get caught up in these boards. I will also admitt that I probably notice it more when it hits close to home for me then when others do it in your direction. Have a good weekend!!
But sally, what does your post actually say about this ruling and its effects? Yes , hate and harrassment is bad, got it. Yes trangenderism is much debated, got it. None of that changes that fair or unfair this child is in a different situation. She/ he isn't biologically a female. Where do one persons rights stop and others begin?
What
There are many readers of this article and paper who have firsthand knowledge of this case. Most likely, after reading many of the comments posted here they are reluctant to offer their thoughts based upon the malevolence of some of the comments. Keep in mind that the MHC was upholding their charge under state law and regulations - “Gender expression” is defined under the new regulations as “the manner in which an individual’s gender identity is expressed, including, but not limited to, through dress, appearance, manner, speech, or lifestyle, whether or not that expression is different from that traditionally associated with that individual’s assigned sex at birth.” To those of you who are supportive of what Mr. Melanson states about dressing his grandson in a dress so next year he can continue this battle in the school and his grandson can use the girl’s room, shame on you. This young transgendered girl perceives herself as such, carries herself as such, and views herself as such. She is not a boy in a dress
i love people quoting the bible. organized religion is a cult and is a way to control the masses and it works.
Anatomically correct Boys use the "Boys room" and Girls use the "Girls room". Let the child use the Uni-sex teachers bathroom. Rules are rules, just as adults are required to use the designated restrooms so should everyone else. Talk about "special rights" where is the fairness in that??!!
This world is getting crazier each day. In MA they're trying to pass laws to support these transgendered "rights". Keep the boys and men out of my little girls bathroom, PLEASE.
A child isn't born transgendered, it's taught to be that way (or recruited), either directly or through their social environment. Our children are now being subject to all manner of gender confusion, earlier and earlier as we go. They can't cope with this info and are falling into the trap that the afflicted are setting for them. Afflicted yes. According to the CDC and the APA. Transgenderism is a disease! Oh my?
I was recently at a judiciary hearing in MA where a physician at the world famous Children's Hospital is chomping at the bit to be in the Guiness book of world records for performing gender change surgery to a toddler (if we were allow him to do this).
As everyone points out and I will as well, my way. God doesn't mess up. If you're born a male your a male, born a female you're a female. No amount of surgical mutilation or hormonal treatments will EVER change that fact. It wasn't meant to be...
Yes I'm Intolerant of the Lefts ideas that everything they believe should be accepted or else I'm intolerant. So be it. I can't understand why this country is running headlong into disaster, pushing our children out in front of the train wreck. In the long run the left is trying to find comfort in their sin as misery loves company. Well as a parent of 5 kids, 23 - 7; I'll let you know what I think, and what is wrong with the path these radicals are laying out in front of us. You want to hurt your kids as they are developing in every way as they grow? Keep feeding them this nonsense.
If you want to check out details and an argument for a sanity check out the Mass Resistance web site and look for the link to "Redeeming the Rainbow" it's a great book that is also full of scientific research that throw's the tolerant left's real agenda wide open as the most intolerant people on this earth
Suppose Michael Jackson was the music teacher at this school and he wanted to use both the boys and girls bathrooms because of his pansexual identity and perhaps both male and female chromosomes; he also said it was in his genetic makeup to prefer young children.
The principal said he couldn't use either of those bathrooms, only the male faculty bathroom.
He filed a complaint with the Maine Human Rights commission claiming discrimination.
How do you think they'd vote?
Followup on the the boy girl using the girls bathroom
Apparently the girls have complained to the dept. of Human Services that this 'boy' has repeatedly urinated on the seats and floor, failed to adequately clean up and this is a health hazard or "YUCKY" & "GROSS".
How do you think the Bureau of Health Engineering would rule?
for all of you oh so RELIGIOUS people out there...if any of u had a clue...GOD CREATES ALL OF US...WE DON'T BECOME GAY TRANS LES OR BI BECAUSE WE'RE GOING AGAINST GOD. God obviously made people the way they are....it hurts God even more when u degrade his own kind...get a CLUE. i am sick of hearing that all the time. God sends those to hell for those who don't accept his children...get a life thankyou! GOD WE LOVE YOU AND KNOW U LOVE US.
this child is in no wrong...it takes differen people to run this world GROW UP PEOPLE. THATS WHATS WRONG WITH THE WORLD.
I'm a student at UMaine Orono and we have gender neutral bathrooms. While I identify as a gay male, I still think it's a great thing to have these bathrooms. Our society is so obsessed with separating gender in so many ways and there's really no good reason for it. In some ways it discriminates against straight people because I can, for example, get an on campus room with my boyfriend, but a straight couple cannot, though this is beginning to change as USM offers co-ed dorms.
I see that the Bangor Daily News is eliminating valid posts again. What a piece of garbage this newspaper is!
Jaysopinion: Please don't preach from ignorance or convenience. God's book; the Bible is exceedingly clear. He hates sin. Not the sinners, his children. He didn't create a beings that from birth represent raw sin. Homosexuality is a sin. If you wish to debate this honestly reach out to me. We're all sinners. I am. However I don't try to justify it by causing others to sin. I will not lead my child, nor allow our gov't institutions and others to proclaim their way of sin is OK and acceptable. The reason for this is that I'd rather protect our children than lead them down a path or hurt, pain and a death that can't be redeemed. I'm still a novice in my faith but would be willing to share what I have learned and experienced now that I have rejected sin in my life and try to live free of it (I'll never get there on my own,but Christ has provided a way). I can point to examples on a daily basis where my faith and God's blessing have truly shown me the wonders of his kingdom.
Listen, let's forget about the Biblical truth's in the debate. The Homosexual lifestyle is an aberration that leads to physical and psychological issues in their lives. Transgendered folks are also taking a gender identity belief or unreliable set of feelings and acting on them either by being out of place in the body they were born with or by mutilating their bodies in unnatural ways either through surgery, chemically or both, to a point where their confusion puts them in a position they couldn't reverse if they even finally came to their senses. If these things only occurred in the adult population folks like myself would find it sad but at least there would be a reasonable assumption that their choices have been well thought out and the folks would have some capability to accept their decisions somehow. Their CHOICES. However at this point in time, the entire GLBT community is trying to tell us that their lifestyles are normal and acceptable, healthy, etc. When all evidence points elsewhere. However they want society to accept this and they'll accomplish this by indoctrinating our children at an early age to believe it as well. Believe in their own destruction. Believe in unhealthy, lifestyles which in no way can support a healthy core family that can perpetuate humanities existence. Destroy the family foundation and you have no families, you have no existence.
How many generations are we willing to sacrifice to this grand social experiment that in no way can sustain itself?? How many kids and human lives should we consider destroying? What does the wisdom of this century have over the rest of history. The foundation of humanity, the family. Man, woman and children. Place God's wisdom back into the equation and things become clearer.
esharib, I agree with your basics but lay off the biblical crap.
I'm thrilled with your endorsement.
define crap?? Why are you so negative about the Truth's of the Bible? Seriously, no sound bite response please. I'm really interested in knowing the core reasons for your response...
esharib, You say your a novice to the faith, it doesn't sound like it. Great post. Isn't great to have the Holy Spirit open your eyes and see the world through a new set of eyes, and to know you are finally standing on solid ground. Its been twenty years for me and it still amazes me how good and faithful God is to those that love Him. Be forewarned, you are standing in the lions den. They will try to rip you and your faith to shreds. Never forget you are standing on solid rock, God bless.
I have a question. Yup im probably a dumb redneck as some will probably say ,but oh well here it goes. If this transgender child (who is a boy) is allowed into the girls bathroom, does this mean he will be in the girls changing room when they change into gym clothes? Somehow that doesnt seem right. A boy is a boy and a girl is a girl, it is what it is, until surgicaly changed. Im sorry if this is a repeat question I didnt read all 225 posts. Be gentle guys,,,,dont tear me apart. It really is a logical question.
Jaysopinon, you wrote-time. God sends those to hell for those who don't accept his children...get a life thankyou! GOD WE LOVE YOU AND KNOW U LOVE US. Does this mean God sends those to hell who do not accept themselves as HE created them? This is by no means a way to argue with you,,im just asking a questions.
If this becomes the norm, it will probably force the smaller schools in the state that can't afford the extra costs to install suitable bathroom facilites for whatever class of individual feels the neccessity to be classified as. Now we might need to have: Boys, Girls, Men, Women, Gay boys & men, Gay girls and women, another one for those that aren't sure, etc. etc. Talk about an express lane to school consolidation.
maineworkr, The answer to your question is simple, like any other situation in a persons life, you take one step at a time. At first the child was allowed to use the girls room, everyone understood, children are basically good at heart and the teachers did the right thing for the child and others. You ask about changing clothes, I'm sure an accommodation could easily be made for privacy, using a curtain for example. There does not have to be a problem if a solution comes first. It just takes a little time, thought and effort.
I really do feel sorry for he kids who have issues about their sexuality. But don't you think the powers that be are going a little to far to accomidate one childs problems.
Like anything else patom1, it just takes a little caring to find a solution that can change a life.
This boy has a mental illness.
He needs to have that illness treated. It is not in his best interest to have that illness celebrated.
Clearly there are things wrong with this boy, the parents need to be investigated as some sort of abuse has probably gone on here.
It is also not in his best interest to be harassed by another insecure fifth-grade boy.
On another matter, when did Atheists become so preachy? They are far more condescending and self-righteous than any regular church goer.
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aclem1 re: your 7/2/09 6:53 a.m. post~ Can you find another agenda worth clogging the courts with, where our tax dollars would be better spent? It's not like our state is made of money you know. We have people who need medical care and can't get it... our city halls and government offices are cutting back on man hours... schools are cutting back on tech ed classes and other important things that our children need... the list goes on and on.
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karenlite: re 8:58 PM....I think that is true. Dealing with this in a calm, deliberate way instead of flying off the handle about it, would be a better response.
soothsayer: Re 9:20 AM You make some good points.
patom1 - the local elementary school in my town banned all peanut products once it was found out that ONE student had a peanut allergy. Sometimes compromises have to be made for a single student, and a transgender student is no different from one with a peanut allergy.
SunnyF - I do disagree with your analogy. Peanut alergies can and have been in the past, lethal to the victims of this alergy. Once the person is no longer attending that school and it has been determined that no others are alergic to peanuts or their products. The school can lift the ban of peanuts and their by products.
The use of bathroom facilities for special people who have an identy crisis, is not life threatening. We have made bathroom facilities around the state and country that are handicap accessable. I don't feel uncomfortable with this as they are also usable by those who aren't physicaly handicapped.
What you have here is a situation of an individual with an identity crisis or possible confusion as to what sex they are. The individual, according to the article, has been physically examined and been determined to have all the physical attributes of a male. It seems that the powers that be want to allow this individual access to female bathroom facilities. There in lies the problem.
I wonder how long it will be before Dr. Phil has these people on his show?
Tolerance is a bad thing to waste!
So I guess we need to change the titles of restrooms to penis room and vagina room. Problem solved. Next on the list the parents should sue for urinals in the girls room, the school is definately descriminating against girls with penises.
I would like to say this..I feel for the trandgengered child. I am 54. I was born and raised in Maine-. I am lrgally blind with C/P from birth. I have met persons lwho are transgender. Cos of their voice I address thrm as what a person's sounds like. It is male or female. We'er talking about a girl who needs to go the restroom at school I know what boys and girls have. They stand to pee-a boy and girls sit to pee, That said. This child needs to go to the bathroom. The child is dressed in girls' clothes,Has a girls'name if it has been changed to that,looks like a girl,acts likr a girl stc, Needs to go.It would be unsafe for that pupil to use the the boy's room. The answer is the girls or and unisex restroom. i was tom boy years ago. I perfered playing with boy's toys. Nothing wrong with that. I was 11 ,I hated the fact I had to wear a bra. It was a battle. I got my period. I looked like a boy and for years called sir. I told them I was not a sir. I went thru the change of life.The periods stopped at 37. went on ladies hormones. as that is the gender I am. Ilater found sport bras that fit. Maybe this child sits to pee. My friend of 26 years has a tiny penis. He can't stand to pee. I told him to sit. That was years ago.He has ladies clothes and yes he was born male but has the brain of a female. Where we live he can't go out as a she. Years ago my friend dresses as a woman and went out. Ihe thing is he can't pass as such. .
This pupil dressea as a girl. Has the male organ. We have lived in states qhere it is crime for a male to use the ladirs ever if they are living as a woman-they have the male organ and that is why. I am not saying bar this person from using the rest room. The child should not use the girls room nor the boys room.They should have a sigle person rest room. For the child's health and safety. If this pupil is trully trangensered-thry should remove the wrong body part so that she can use the girls room. I am aware this is costly. I am living with a person that has the body of a male and the mind of a woman. It is hard on me. It is like I am living with 2 persons. There is no help for him as he is poor. I pity my friend. People see a man. IMy friend is a female in a man's body. He has been this all his life. I was bullied as a blind child years ago in Maine schools. For something that I was given at birth blindess. I am appalled at the bulling which starts in the home. I have read ever post here. The bible i-a hateful thing. Kevin of Bangor said it better on this. This child needs to use a erstroom at scool. This child is not covered under ADA. Transgender are not I know years ago yhis would never make the papers.They had drees codes in the schools and I wore dirls' pants. I hated the dress. Like it or not that child is school age and is to be educated. Ye say nothing of the awful gang look. My friend dresses better than IIam just a layperdon..
"She is biologically a male" WTF does that mean. This is an absolute disgrace. I believe the parents should have their rear ends kicked up around their ears and then forced to get sex change operations them selves.
To the grandfather, You lost because your suit basically was saying (from what I read above) that there will no should no longer be a gender specific restroom if the rights of this child are upheld. I think an effective countersuit would be to FORCE ALL individuals to use a bathroom based on their sexual identity. This would be the natural course because the Maine HRC believes that sexual indentity which restroom an individual should use.
What seems to be missing from this is the fact it is simply a case of the rights of one individual were ruled greater than anyone else’s.
The use of a restroom has NEVER been based on sexual orientation, it is based on the physical parts of a body. Plain and simple, by using the boys room, this “girl” is not being exposed to a sexual body part that “she” does not have. However, by using the girls room, every single girl risk being exposed to a sexual body part they do NOT have. What about the right of every female student to not being exposed to a penis? What about their right not to expose themselves to someone who is physically of the opposite sex? If a picture of a penis was posted on a bathroom wall of the girls room, the student doing so would be expelled, yet a live version is OK?
What about in gym class, this child obviously has the same rights in the shower. Has anyone asked those who are physically girls or their parents how they feel about being exposed to male body parts? Has this child any testosterone? If so, I’m sure an erection is very possible and multiple times daily at the individual’s current age, I can’t imagine what it would be like in the girls bathroom or shower if that happened!
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I sincerly wonder if the conservative crazy people who are arguing for the discomfort of the "poor little girls" would argue the same for "poor little boys" if the transgender child was a female-to-male. I personally am an 18 year old Female to Male preop transgender who was forced to use a "gender neutral" bathroom in the nurses office for my last year of high school. I was raised female and definitely was never encouraged of spoiled to "do whatever I wanted and to "feel what ever I feel". Using the "gender neutral bathroom" in the nurses office at school was both a self image demolishing act as well as embarrassing and I wish the best of luck to the little GIRL and hope that she has better experiences in school than I did.
cher, how right you are. this is a great example of how grown ups can put the idea of ignorance, fear and hate into thier children, or grandchildren....outlaw, this student would be better without your children, obviously....watergal, not your decision to make......alces, me too. Elizabethann, how hateful are you, how about loving the sinner, even if this child is gender confused. another great step forward for equality in maine.
This conversation has gotten extremely boring. Add something new to the subject or let it die.
donnelly, you requested someone add something new----ok, here goes.
This article has absolutely NO information about this young person prior to the initial decision concerning bathroom use. NO ONE, except for the young person's parents and physician know ALL the circumstances surrounding the students request to use the girl's bathroom. NO ONE knows the size of the student's penis or whether the student has female reproductive organs in addition to male, except for the parents and the physician. Additionally, it's NONE OF ANYONE'S D@MN BUSINESS!!!!! Nor is it any of ANYONE'S D@MN BUSINESS what the parents, physician or school is doing about the student's condition. The student is suffering enough and certainly doesn't need to be harrassed anymore by uneducated, emotionally charged morons. The BDN shouldn't have even printed this story as a minor child is directly involved. The BDN doesn't print stories of 10 year old kids who get caught shoplifting, why this?
Frankforter 7/3/09 6:53 post~ We all need to be educated on this subject, and unless this story is brought to light, how can we learn from it? I'm certainly not advocating that this child be allowed to use the girls bathroom just because he feels like a female and certainly wouldn't allow my daughter to be subjected to his male parts in the shower room. However, I am very concerned for this child's well-being and would like to know if it would be demeaning to him if he were forced to use the male's bathroom until he graduated from high school. What would the adverse affects be, if any?
If the courts are forcing our females to share their restroom and shower room with this outward looking male child, then this subject does become our business. We do not need to know what the plans are for this young boy's future when it comes to changing his genitalia, however, we do need to be certain that he is accommodated so that he is safe and comfortable in his own restroom and shower room.
Was this child born a hermaphrodite (with male and female genitalia)? For more information on Hermaphrodites, see:
http://8e.devbio.com/article.php?ch=17&id=266
The more we learn about this child, the more informed decisions we can make in order to make accommodations for him, protect him and at the same time protect our own girls and boys. Sometimes the surgery needed is not done until the child is older. See:
http://generalmedicine.suite101.com/article.cfm/human_hermaphrodites
The following is about a transgendered child, (which is what the BDN article indicates). If this is what this child in this article is articulating, then I can see the parents dilemma. This child already knows he is not like the other children... see:
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3088298&page=1
These are straight forward and informative readings.
Amazed,
Unless YOU are the parent of the child, or a school official at the school the child is attending, or the child's physician, then YOU have no reason to interfere in the case.
Frankforter 7/3/09 9:36 p.m. Just so YOU understand my stance clearly... I am not interfering in this case, but rather would like to help others understand a very misunderstood issue. May I ask just who YOU think you are that makes YOU feel that it is YOUR place to tell other people who YOU believe has a say in this very public matter? This child is,or may be, using my son or daughters restroom and or shower room and therefore, I DO have a right to my opinion in this matter.
I would also like to add that I have nothing but total compassion for the child involved (the boy who wants to use the girls bathroom). After reading the articles that I mentioned in my 7/3/09 9:17 p.m. post, the information that these articles give, helped me to understand the situation that this poor child is going through, and I hope it helps others understand it better.
Since this issue pertains to who knows how many transgendered or hermaphrodite people, it would be best to help make decisions now so that this story doesn't have to be an issue for them in the future.
"Intersexed" is preferred over "Hermaphrodite", which should be reserved for a particular set of Intersex conditions. It's the word biologists use for such conditions when they occur in any organism.
And yes, Intersexed children have been using the restroom that closest matches their appearance since time immemorial. We - for I'm Intersexed - try to do it when there's no-one else about. You see, there are some very peculiar and violent people who send their children and grandchildren to harass us. At first with words, but those are invariably followed by violence, and often sexual assault. They do it "for the good of society" you see, so think the usual rules of a civilised society don't apply to them.
I have thought long and hard on this issue here. I have no issue with transgendered individuals. However, I believe this childs parents were wrong to take the action they did, and I believe the courts were wrong to make the decision they made. I don't see where the school was failing to protect the child, in fact, the school made SPECIAL accomodations SPECIFICALLY for this child. Where is the descrimination in their actions? They provided this child with a restroom that would protect the PRIVACY of not only this student, but the other students as well.
As for bullys, violence and other discrimination, It happens every where, to all types of people, children included. To someone other than a minority, we have to deal with it. There is no legal action. I can't sue because auto companies don't build vehicles to fit the "small statured" people. (we actually have to pay thousands extra for conversions).
One final note to this childs parents....Stop trying to make a point. So she is different. No big deal. The only lesson you're teaching her is to sue every time she doesn't get her way. Teach her to compromise. Teach her compassion. Teach her to treat others right. Don't use her for your own agenda.
Gramz, wrong, wrong, wrong.....teach this child to stand up for themselves and to use the legal system to afford them rights when they are denied. There are bullies everywhere and they are there often because the are tolerated, the first line of defense should be to report and then to act. Anything short of that by these parents in this case, as reported, would have given the wrong idea to the bully, to the girl and to her classmates. These special circumstances were initially met with separate but equal accommodations, not equal. This is a person who sees herself as a female, I am seeing transgendered as a label, meaning that there is at least gender confusion, real and painful for this girl and her family. Stop supporting the wrongful treatment of this poor girl. With the rational that bullying is everywhere so deal, we are giving power to the bully, not the person being victimized. Where is the outrage over the reverse lawsuit by some adult making a point. I would support this family 100% for fighting for the correct treatment of their daughter.......
TO MANY MONEY HUNTERS IN AUGUSTA CRAP LIKE THIS SHOULDN'T EVEN COME TO LIGHT. HOW MUCH LEGAL EXPENCE HAS BEEN RUN UP FOR THE TAXPAYERS TO PAY ON THIS ONE. CHOP THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION.
Amazed,
Sorry I didn't express my thoughts properly. When responding to donnelly, initially, I was addressing all the posters who demanded to know the entire background of the student and the parents. I was referring mostly to the illiterate morons who said things like "if you have a penis---boy's room, if you have a vagina---girl's room", and other pathetic accusations of the students being a closet potential sexual predator. It's nobody's business HOW or WHY the student is the way she is. THe student is a juvenile and as such, should have the privacy accorded. Ever wonder why a juvenile criminal court hearing is closed to the public?
Yes, "we" need to understand this MUCH more than the majority of the posters here, ESPECIALLY grandpa Melanson, but I don't think it should come at the expense of the privacy of a juvenile.
gramz09, You're standing up for the bully, the one who supposedly did the name calling. Do you want to live in a world where bullies win? It is the right thing to protect the child with special needs. You need to look out for the one who needs the help. The bully does not need help, he needs to stop abusing defenseless people.
gramz09: Yes, and tell that grandfather to teach his grandson right; teach him not to bully; not to harass; not to pick on someone because they are "different." Tell that grandfather not to use his grandson to make a point!
If the child knew at a young age, according to his parents that he was "transgendered", sounds more like parents who wanted a girl and got a boy and have doomed him to a life more difficult than it had to be.
freddie, there has never been such an ignorant post. Why would parents CHOOSE something so hard, hurtful and possibly dangerous for their Child? Your tone alone shows the dangers for people transgendered.
freddie: You have absolutely no knowledge of this family. What a presumptious and unfounded remark. Your "speculation" is absurd; you know not what these parents feel for their child!
I agree, jspear.
and you do?
I don't mean to presums so much. It just seems to me that with my experience,limited as it may be, that children as young as the article indicated the child was when he started to show the tendencies, don't really know what sexual identity means, and are very much influenced by their environment. I assure you, if any of my children chose such a lifestyle or developed such a lifestyle choice/predilection.... when they were old enough to know themselves, I would continue to love and support them in any way I could.
I never said I knew what the parents thought or did. re 12:12 PM. I do not know them. I would not presume to know and make assumptions about their feelings and love for their child.
Where would the child get the idea that it was okay to use the girls bathroom? I understand that the parents are attempting to support their child in this, I'm sure, difficult stage of her life, but it was extremely ignorant for the parents to just let the child use whatever bathroom (s)he feels. It was extremely ignorant for the parents to ASSUME that everyone else would be okay with THEIR situation. What did they think was going to happen? That nobody would be offended or just plain weirded out by it? If it were really that much of an issue for the child than the parents should have gone DIRECTLY to the school principal, explained the situation in private, and came to an agreeable conclusion. I think the school was not at fault by having the child use the faculty restroom. The child's parents should have been respectful of other students and their families. At that age, it is not everyone's business. I understand that you, mom and dad, are trying to help your child, by comforting and consoling her, and I understand that YOU may feel there is nothing wrong with it, and there isn't. But consider others as well. If there was a transgendered, pre-op, child that went to school with my child, and (s)he was using the girls/boys room (depending on "gender") I would be upset. I would at least try to have a conversation with the child's parents first and explain my point of view. If that was to no avail, then I would take it to the school board. My child of that age DOES NOT need to be subjected to that, before he is ready.
There's a good argument that children of such a tender age "shouldn't be subjected to this". The trouble is, that transgendered and intersexed children of that age are - what about them? Surely they're the ones who deserve extra consideration, not less? What's next, stopping children of such a tender age from being exposed to the blind? Or the deaf? Or kids their own age in wheelchairs? The reason so many Intersexed people have problems in later life is because kids aren't taught about this in grade school. In places where they are taught about this, they don't have a problem with it. It's like other kids who look different, like having a different hair colour, or skin colour.
When *are* they ready? To be exposed to different races? Or those who may be missing a limb? Or to those with Downes syndrome?
JillT, As a parent, I share your concern. The trouble is ... my son's intersexed too. He had to have genital reconstruction at 18 months, and although everything works, the appearance is not quite the usual. What do those parents like me do? How do we explain to our children that their mere existence is considered by some adults to too difficult for children their age to cope with? Even though the kids themselves are fine with it - until told otherwise.
Zoe, it is with education comes acceptance, tolerance and support. Intersexed boys and girls need this at all points in their lives, your comments point to that clearly. Teaching students that different is OK is so important to making difference OK throughout our lives. Students with physical disability, students with facial differences, color differences, I work with a student with a skin difference that makes him look burned. His classmates were at first apprehensive but he is one of them now. I really see no difference in exposing children to intersexed students. They learn to accept at an early age. Does this take skilled teaching, probably, but it really only takes acceptance and the knowledge that we are all one human family. Everything else just follows. Again, congratulations to this family for supporting and encouraging just that in this district. Now move on......
I agree jspear, that education comes with acceptance, tolerance, and support. While my children are educated about others that are different, less fortunate, or what-have-you, and they are very accepting of 'different ' people....My husband and I should be the ones to educate them about those children and adults FIRST.
JillT - none of us can be objective when it's our own children's welfare at stake, can we? I'd certainly prefer it if children's parents talked to them about such issues before they went to pre-school, when they may meet children who look different from them. My fear though is that some parents will be like Mr Melanson, and teach their children or grandchildren to bully and hate, as he proudly admits to doing.
Please JillT - suppose it was your child that was not quite the usual. What would you do? I'd like to think that you'd encourage the school to educate in areas where most people don't know very much, and even more are uncomfortable with such issues. I can't say that I'm particularly comfortable with them either, but I have no choice.
And as someone who is also Intersexed - albeit in a very different and much rarer way than my son's common condition - I know what it's like when people don't understand, and do fear. Things are better now than they were - my son turns 8 in a few days, and by his age, I'd already had numerous broken bones from the attacks at school and afterwards. And had been shot at. That still happens to Trans and Intersexed children, but not nearly as commonly as it used to. Of the 28 names of the slain in the 2008 Transgender day of Remembrance, only two were children.
I do what I can so that my son won't be on that list. And neither will this girl, despite the Grandpa Melansons of the world. I know all too well that they never stop at taunts.
JIll, where would you expose them to all of the different people of the world? If you are teaching acceptance than there is no need to teach them about any one type of difference, all would be accepted. You and your husband, your neighbors, your family are exposed to a finite amount of children. While I agree with you about teaching tolerance starting at home, you cannot think you can do it all. Life is filled with a variety of people, teach tolerance of all and you will be doing all you can. peace
Zoe, I would probably do everything as stated earlier, but it's not my child, so I can't really be certain. I DO
know that i would be sympathetic to other families and their beliefs/concerns. The grandfather in the story is a bigoted S.O.B. and he just proved his ignorance in the story by proudly boasting about what he said and did. I know that I cannot expose my children to "all of the different people of the world", but can give them a starting base of acceptance and tolerance of those that are different and/or less fortunate.
My point is we are not so different after-all. And I tell my kids this (not verbatim) as well, whether we be of a different race and our skin is of a different color, or we are transgendered, intersexed, gay, straight, whatever....we all bleed red, shouldn't that be enough to make us equal?
I think that to pull out comparisons to the blind, handicapped,or wheelchairs is mis-leading. Also the grandson and grandfather are a different story. To bully and act that way is wrong and most everybody agrees with that. Not everybody agree that the bathroom situation is a good idea. The comparisons to the blind, handicapped,or wheelchairs is mis-leading because they don't involve sexual organs. The reality is that even if it is unfair, this child is different. Parents shouldn't have to be concerned with their children of that age being exposed to that. This child should be shown love and respect in the school, but where is the harm in using a private bathroom. If anybody understands already that there is a major difference then this child does. That is another reason the other comparsions don't apply. While we try hard to provide a "normal" life for people with different handicaps it isn't always pratcial. A teacher doesn't hold the entire class back waitng for a child with downs to understand. A child in a wheelchair can't play little league. You love and respect these children, and never harrass, but go out of your way to help and treat them like everybody else. But none of that changes the crappy, unfair reality that it isn't always going to be fair and some things will be different..
jill, if I came across as saying otherwise, let me clarify. You are doing all you can by teaching your kids just as you are and congratulations. I think there are times when we as a society will have situations in our free educational programs where kids will see and be exposed to things that are out of what families believe in or want their children exposed to. If we limit this exposure, we are practicing intolerance and that can't be. The world we live in has many things in it that people find offensive, wrong or abnormal but to some degree, most are just differences, different from what we see as "normal". You are right within your family but you must know that others are not so tolerant. Others would have people deny who or what they are, be excluded from the general population, use separate facilities or even be denied access to what every other student has. I think these parents have it right by asking for their child to use the bathroom that they identify themselves as being. This young person feels she is a girl, using the girls bathroom may be unacceptable to some but it is not to her. Her parents are right to ask for this to be respected and yes, tolerated, by her classmates and her school. Less than that is discrimination and intolerance. You are right about this grandfather but he stands for and is speaking for others who are just as intolerant, only quietly so. That is why you read bravo's to him in these posts. True tolerance has no "OK but......" Tolerance includes all, no matter how foreign or difficult.....it is simply tolerant, accepting and letting each be who or what they are. Again, congrats to you and your family for teaching the right things, the right way of being.
duckwa, why because it is more socially acceptable or more easily accepted by you? There was a time when disabled students were housed in state run institutions ONLY, there was no free and appropriate education for them. It took federal law to have that happen, not the good will of the people of Maine or any other state. The federal government forced the hand of the people of this great nation. If you make a school or employer aware of a disabilty is a federal law that that must be accommodated for, period. Practicality really doesn't hold water. Is it expensive sometimes, yes, is it uncomfortable sometimes, yes, would people rather spend their tax dollars on new books or a new gym, maybe. Fortunately, it is the law of this land. My point basically is that fair does not always mean equal. It is not always fair to wait for tha student to understand but the accommodation for the understanding, the reteaching, the individual plan that maximizes their learning is equality. This youngster and her family felt that separate was not equal and they felt the need to support and finally sue to have that happen. Treating her equally from the start would have avoided any of us out of the relationship between the family and the school knowing anything about this situation, a very private and probably embarassing situation for the child and her family. Because the school chose a different avenue, not equal, we do know. What would have been fair would have been equal treatment from the start. Glad you agree about the grandfather here.....peace
Hey Zoe, a shout out to you for standing up and standing tall. Objectivity really doesn't exist, we all see the world through a particular set of glasses. You have a unique and important perspective here, however and how sad it is to hear your story. Poignant and powerful are your observations, first hand experiences carry a lot of weight, so much more than supposing this or if that were my child that. Keep up the good work for those unable to speak up for themselves and keep telling the story, it needs to be heard and understood.
jspear - The thing that's most scary? I had it easier than most. I know of very few who got off as lightly as I did. I had good parents, and not all are as lucky as I was.
I know it, and that's another reason why I try to do whatever I can. If everyone were like JillT, there would be no problem, but the trouble is, there's a lot like Grandpa Melanson. Who in turn, is trying to do what he sees as the right thing, and is so convinced of his own righteousness, that no amount of persecution or cruelty is beyond him.
These are10 year old kids that we are talking about. I knew from any early age that something "wasn't quite right", and wish that I could have done what this little girl has been able to do. The boy that has followed her into the bathroom, probably doesn't have a problem with her, but his grandad does. This is where the problem lies, the previous generation of people and their attitudes to things. We know that it' wrong to call someone names because of their race or religion, but to a large ammount of people, it is still acceptable to intimidate and bully people who are gay or lesbian or don't live in the gender they we're assigned at birth.
I think the school has done what it can to try to keep everyone happy, but some people won't be happy untill we're all the same, and that will be a very sad day for the human race.
Has anyone asked the girls in this school for their opinions on the subject?
oopster, equal rights does not make us all the same, only treated equally.